Trainz on ARM64

just another article on the future of ARM on the Mac. https://www.macworld.co.uk/news/mac/apple-processors-benefits-3790979/

"But the biggest winner will be Apple.

[h=2]No obvious gain for all users[/h] For those who have a laptop and want decent power and the longest possible battery life, I think Apple's processors will do tremendously well.
Intel's processors are constantly hitting the heat ceiling, and the MacBook Air could just as well have got its name from how much it draws on the fan as from its lightweight chassis. If you've used an iPad Pro - based on proprietary Apple chips - you'll have been struck by how well it manages to deal with heavy work tasks in apps such as iMovie and GarageBand while remaining completely silent.
Users of desktop Macs do not necessarily have as much to benefit. First, the processor is not always the most important component in such machine; the graphics card can be significantly more important, obviously in games but also in many professional programs.

Second, on the iMac, the Mac mini and most importantly the Mac Pro, Apple must not only beat Intel in terms of performance per watt but also in pure performance. Power efficiency isn't everything. Customers won't buy a Mac Pro that's both slower and less versatile (for example, no way to run Windows), no matter how little power it draws.

Mac users who choose that platform because they prefer macOS but want a flexible, broadly usable computer that can do anything will have problems with the new Macs, at least initially. Although Rosetta 2 works incredibly well, there will be programs that simply do not work, and hardware whose drivers are never updated. Logic Pro X will be optimised, but what happens to the hundreds of plugins musicians and audio editors usually work with?
Since Metal was released, developers have requested better compatibility with Vulkan and DirectX 12, to make it easier to port Windows and console games - but Apple has not listened so far. Whether or not the Macs of the future will run anything other than mobile games is entirely up to Apple, and many game-loving Mac users may be forced to buy a PC, even though a MacBook in theory has the power to run any game."

Its incredible that a year after the mac pro was released that the software that can take advantage of its power is still quite limited. Typical Apple technique, release something and hope everyone will adapt their practices and software to accommodate the new tech, it worked with the iMac, when they abandoned floppy disc drives , but from what I can see since the new mac pro has been released prices of the 2012 cheese grater units units have gone up , possibly because people still want to use legacy apps or just find the price of the new machines to be too much to bear given the limiting software that can take advantage of that power.
 
You missed a part. "We users have a lot to gain from this. Intel has been lagging behind in development for many years, particularly in terms of manufacturing technology: Taiwanese firm TSMC now leads the way with its super-efficient 5nm technology. Mac users will be able to take advantage of TSMC's power-efficient chips.Many developers will also be happy. Finally, they don't have to put so much effort into making a completely different version for Mac. They can simply release their iOS app on the Mac App Store, or reuse large parts of its code for the Mac version. This will cause many more iOS apps to be ported to the Mac."

I will disagree about performance being the most important part on the iMac and Mac Mini. Mac mini was known and advertised as being a very low power Mac. The iMacs were not high performance either. Both form factors are heat constrained. Now with the iMac Pro, they added a good deal of cooling and power. Yes there are use cases that will not be useable and some people will have to delay due to software not being ready. Nothing new.
 
One thing that I don't understand is that Trainz has 'leaned' towards Nvidia for years and yet the game is still not optimised for Nvidia GPUs (ie. recognised by Nvidia and listed as supported). No idea at all if Nvidia's acquisition of ARM makes any difference to this situation in any way! :p

Paul (as usual, baffled by technology)
 
One thing that I don't understand is that Trainz has 'leaned' towards Nvidia for years and yet the game is still not optimised for Nvidia GPUs (ie. recognised by Nvidia and listed as supported). No idea at all if Nvidia's acquisition of ARM makes any difference to this situation in any way! :p

Paul (as usual, baffled by technology)


Probably not, as usual we'll find out in the fullness of time, it may well be that optimising for onhe typ[e of gpu disadvantages those who use AMD . When NV3 declined to help troubleshoot my GTX 970 on mac os a few years back because it wasn't officially supported by apple,I decided it was no point in trying to make them work with Trainz on my Mac pro, they are great gpus ( 8 year old mac pro booted up in seconds and worked great on every program i had APART from TANE ), but very sad when they cannot be used universally .

Obviously nvidia and Apples dislike of each other isn't going away soon, moving away from Intel creates a lot of unknowns, and NV3 aren't saying anything about nvidia features that don't work in 2019 for Macs. PC wise I doubt this will be any issue at all as I am sure that NV3 will keep the main priority on developing the game for the platform that most of us use. However I just get fed up of reading promises that never seem to fulfill their potential or leave out particular platforms due to spats between manufacturers. I used to be a defender of apple but the longer I use their products the more cynical I become about their actions as they seem more interested in their gadgets than their computers.
 
Between Apple and Nvidia wasn’t just a spat, as there was graphics failures that cost Apple a lot of money. https://appleinsider.com/articles/0...nvidia_chips_in_macs_following_contract_fight

Failures like that cost Apple a lot of money and hurt their reputation. Every time Apple has a failure or defect, Apple gets hit hard. I think Apple should support Nvidia eGPUs. I think Apple going ARM will help the Mac as it brings the developers who are already experienced with iOS to the Mac side with the same GPU family. You can have one app that runs nativity on all their devices.
 
Between Apple and Nvidia wasn’t just a spat, as there was graphics failures that cost Apple a lot of money. https://appleinsider.com/articles/0...nvidia_chips_in_macs_following_contract_fight

Failures like that cost Apple a lot of money and hurt their reputation. Every time Apple has a failure or defect, Apple gets hit hard. I think Apple should support Nvidia eGPUs. I think Apple going ARM will help the Mac as it brings the developers who are already experienced with iOS to the Mac side with the same GPU family. You can have one app that runs nativity on all their devices.

With all due respect, that was over a decade ago,Apple used a number of nvidia gpus after that , the gtx 680 being the last and probably the best. its hardly an excuse to jettison an entire line of the best gpus available for a decade , its o reason to not even produce decent drivers for cards , especially given that Apple have since produced many of their own in house disasters such as the macbookpro keyboards, which they persisted with for 5 YEARS before they abandoned them, or their mac pro dust bin design that had major flaws for pro users as well as heat issues . They have issued some disastrous security updates , one of which killed my graphics card and also killed logic boards and another that they had to withdraw within a few days of issue.

They don't seem to worry that much over their own snafus , and they hardly ever apologize either, the worst issue I've had with them was with yosemite where there were password reset issues for about six months , i finally found an obscure fix that someone online mentioned but ihad an entire room of imacs where sometimes up to half of them could not be used as no one could log on to them , this was due to their lack of support , no one from apple would help, despite numerous attempts to get a solution, they more or less washed their hands of us once they had flogged us the machines.
 
With all due respect, that was over a decade ago,Apple used a number of nvidia gpus after that , the gtx 680 being the last and probably the best. its hardly an excuse to jettison an entire line of the best gpus available for a decade , its o reason to not even produce decent drivers for cards , especially given that Apple have since produced many of their own in house disasters such as the macbookpro keyboards, which they persisted with for 5 YEARS before they abandoned them, or their mac pro dust bin design that had major flaws for pro users as well as heat issues . They have issued some disastrous security updates , one of which killed my graphics card and also killed logic boards and another that they had to withdraw within a few days of issue.

They don't seem to worry that much over their own snafus , and they hardly ever apologize either, the worst issue I've had with them was with yosemite where there were password reset issues for about six months , i finally found an obscure fix that someone online mentioned but ihad an entire room of imacs where sometimes up to half of them could not be used as no one could log on to them , this was due to their lack of support , no one from apple would help, despite numerous attempts to get a solution, they more or less washed their hands of us once they had flogged us the machines.

oh please. You are complaining about an operating system that came out almost six years ago, yet you say Apple and Nvidia should give up their spat? If that Nvidia GPU issue would of junked your machine, I’m sure you would of added it to your list. Yes apple still used Nvidia after that, it isn’t like it is a quick fix to change GPUs in everything and get all the code right. I’m very sure that the people who had their machines junked by the Nvidia GPU issue didn’t think Nvidia is the best GPU. You discount the damage caused by the GPU issue and yet hit Apple on these other issues. The keyboard issue was statistically overblown by media. Yes it still stinks when it happens to you, however it was overblown. Yes every issue hurts, including that GPU issue. Which OS doesn’t have issues? I use windows and I get crashes with Microsoft’s own apps in Windows 10. Ctrl -Alt-del and use task manager to force those apps to shutdown. They are still using 32 bit apps. Why???? I’ve been using tech for too long to whine about all the issues. Don’t like all the issues, then get rid of computers. No point being bitten about it.
 
oh please. You are complaining about an operating system that came out almost six years ago, yet you say Apple and Nvidia should give up their spat? If that Nvidia GPU issue would of junked your machine, I’m sure you would of added it to your list. Yes apple still used Nvidia after that, it isn’t like it is a quick fix to change GPUs in everything and get all the code right. I’m very sure that the people who had their machines junked by the Nvidia GPU issue didn’t think Nvidia is the best GPU. You discount the damage caused by the GPU issue and yet hit Apple on these other issues. The keyboard issue was statistically overblown by media. Yes it still stinks when it happens to you, however it was overblown. Yes every issue hurts, including that GPU issue. Which OS doesn’t have issues? I use windows and I get crashes with Microsoft’s own apps in Windows 10. Ctrl -Alt-del and use task manager to force those apps to shutdown. They are still using 32 bit apps. Why???? I’ve been using tech for too long to whine about all the issues. Don’t like all the issues, then get rid of computers. No point being bitten about it.

I know all about the downsides of windows as I also have used it for decades, I used both platforms at home and at work for over 20 years , we stuck with apple at work because in the late 90s it was the best out of box experiences for multimedia and I defended them to both students and staff for decades , but no more, I've had enough of their stupid decisions that cost users thousands.

You can never ever change the mind of an apple fanboi,to them apple can do no wrong, I mentioned the above instances of their snafus to illustrate the shallowness of your argument, that apple will stop using an entire line of Gpus because some of their cards had issues on one occasion. If that was the case, then almost every manufacturer in the world would've constantly swopping suppliers , because they all have quality issues from time to ime.
The issue is no doubt deeper than that ( probably dues personality clashes in the upper echelons of each company ) but since apple are so secretive I expect we will never find ou the true reasons as to why they have made that particular decision. do you despute that, within the computing world , in the last decade it has been nvidia who has made the fastest and most reliable gpus ? My tech says he doesn't sell many AMD gpus due to quality issues and my rx580 dying after just under two years doesn't make me feel particularly safe with them either , but I have no other choice of brand if I continue to use apple.
Unfortunately apples choices prevent me from getting the best experiences in trainz and their choices to limit upgradabilty and ease of user repairs over the years have caused both my employers and myself to be constantly upgrading cameras,cables software, storage and a vast array of connectors which are now largely obsolete. Makes them a nice little packet tho....https://www.extremetech.com/computi...-require-600-repair-to-fix-6-problem-flexgate

The point is, they don't seem to care about other major flaws that make them look bad which they have created themselves. My g4 laptop had numerous issues with screens , didn't stop them continuing to use those screens , they inexplicably and consistently hobbled the Mac pros with a tiny selection of graphics cards ,they didn't update the Mac mini for years ( jeepers how much would it have cost to update that simple little unit ? ) and to buy a decent one costs nearly as much as an iMac, yet it still has a cruddy graphics card unless you buy an egpu and it's highly likely that these egpus will not be supported by the move to Arm, windows users on Apple probably will be affected, but as usual apple will force them to adapt to their decisions ( and Yes Microsoft also makes its own cavalier decisions but in general they don't make lots of this old computers obsolete anywhere near as regularly as apple does, my 2010 Mac Pro won't be able to be used in big sur- even tho it's still an extremely good machine, probably a user will be able to create a hack, but I'm not betting on it .)

Apple is a very strange company , as they always have put their user base last , relying on people like you who seem too find an excuse for anything that they do wrong . They make changes that seriously disrupt their user base, and people accept it blithely. I will continue to use their computers as long as I can , but their lack of upgradability, excessive prices and increasing sloppiness in executing updates is not something I'm going to make excuses for, because it can't be excused , no matter how much you attempt to do so. Even if apple doesn't want to sell na s with video cards, why prevent nvidis from releasing the drivers ? This article is most illuminating , there seems to be no technical reason , it speculates that than leadership not wanting it to happen is the main reason , very little or nothing to do with reliability , which makes sense since apples reputation would not be sullied by a few thousand pro users and gamers installing video cards , but most of these folks are really annoyed with apple and justifiably so. https://www.extremetech.com/computi...upport-nvidia-silicon-with-macos-10-14-mojave
 
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You have missed my point entirely. Again you like to jump down the throat of anyone who simply try to enjoy what they have. This is not excusing flaws, just simply not needing to whine about the flaws in every forum and thread. Why can’t you get that point???? I have life to live, and acting bitter about the flaws does nothing good. It is simply a waste of everyone’s time to whine about the history of every flaw. List one time I posted anything glowing about Apple. The answer is you can’t, yet get this stupid idea I’m a fanboy. You don’t know jack about me and ignored what I have said. Over and over I have said I just wish to enjoy myself and I have been in tech in tech for decades.
 
You have missed my point entirely. Again you like to jump down the throat of anyone who simply try to enjoy what they have. This is not excusing flaws, just simply not needing to whine about the flaws in every forum and thread. Why can’t you get that point???? I have life to live, and acting bitter about the flaws does nothing good. It is simply a waste of everyone’s time to whine about the history of every flaw. List one time I posted anything glowing about Apple. The answer is you can’t, yet get this stupid idea I’m a fanboy. You don’t know jack about me and ignored what I have said. Over and over I have said I just wish to enjoy myself and I have been in tech in tech for decades.

Hmmm, well actually you told a number of ex apple users to stop posting negatives about apple on the mac thread and came across as something of a zealot , this wasnt the only post on that thread where you told them to go away if they couldn't say anything positive.
June 28th, 2020, 01:16 AM #11

capdiamont

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This thread isn’t a contest. My faith has always been in their programmers. Why is it we can’t have a thread in the Mac forums without you Windows people taking pot shots?! If you cannot say something nice or on topic then stay out.

Last edited by capdiamont; June 28th, 2020 at 01:19 AM. " not a fanboy ?

Nobody is forcing you to comment here, why not just ignore my posts if they offend you ? , put me on your ignore list then you won't have to read my complaints.....I'm a long term apple user , does that mean that I don't have the right to moan about their stupid decisions ?
if you aren't an apple fan, well you certainly don't come over as that, you defend apple despite their faults , I listed a number of them and you tore into me for doing so, why can't you acknowledge at least some of them ? The constant changes they make obsolete computers and wreck decisions made by individuals and businesses and there are many instances of loyal customers who feel utterly betrayed by them. Can you name me one other computer company who has changed processors three times ..... it was necessary the first time, but not now , intel is perfectly acceptable as a cpu .
I've gone from power pc, to intel and now will have to consider transitioning to arm, they have obsoleted my $4000 ( in 2006 dollars ) g5, my $1500 copy of Final Cut Studio, masses of power pc software , adobe cs5 suite and now all my cheese grater Mac pros, am I supposed to be happy about that ? If I had purchased windows machines practically all of their equivalent items could still be used , no wonder I'm fed up with apple.

it's strange that after all that I still prefer to use a Mac, but will I be doing so in 5 years into the future ? , I very much doubt it , not whilst they see computers as a side line and spend most of their time developing their iOS toys. Now , why don't you just put me on your ignore list and you can go on enjoying your life without having to put up with the unbearable burden of my criticising your fave company and I can wallow in my misery :)
 
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Still didn’t get the point. Why do I have acknowledge any flaws, when you ignore what is did post? I agreed Apple should have Nvidia drivers, since they allow eGPUs. Why is it wrong to have a thread without the whining? Apple isn’t here. What is the point?

I run beta versions of iOS on my driver iPhone. I have old stuff. I have seen many problems. I also seen Apple reach back to me on the flaws I’ve reported in the Feedback app to fix problems many times. Apple is listening to users. Apple is catering to most of the users. Apple does have a bug bounty. Upgradable computers just are not what most users care about. I’ve never upgraded my Mac Mini. At some point I will pull it apart and replace the hard drive.

I put my complaints in the Apple websites and the Feedback app.
 
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For the love of God, stop arguing. This thread is not to talk about whether or not Macs are good. I'm a Mac user, and I'll say this right now - they're okay. This thread was to talk about what exactly? Hmm... Oh yeah, Trainz on ARM64 architecture. This is a forum to talk about Trainz, not for people to bicker about a computer line. Stop arguing. Put each other on ignore, don't read the other's posts, and move on with life.
 
For the love of God, stop arguing. This thread is not to talk about whether or not Macs are good. I'm a Mac user, and I'll say this right now - they're okay. This thread was to talk about what exactly? Hmm... Oh yeah, Trainz on ARM64 architecture. This is a forum to talk about Trainz, not for people to bicker about a computer line. Stop arguing. Put each other on ignore, don't read the other's posts, and move on with life.

Well in the short term ARM will mostly affect Mac users on trainz , so that why I brought it up, since we still have no idea of how the Nividia features in 2019 which mac users cant access will be affected in a move to arm it is a pertinent point. Since nvidia are buying arm it may well affect the future implementation of the platform in relation to the game, use of MORE nvidia features in trainz which apple will not implement due to their spat with the company might be an important factor in future. I'd like to know if my current machine will be able to use trainz 2020 or if i have to move to Pc , thus apples actions are very important to me as it may well cost me more in the near future to keep playing this game .
 
Still didn’t get the point. Why do I have acknowledge any flaws, when you ignore what is did post? I agreed Apple should have Nvidia drivers, since they allow eGPUs. Why is it wrong to have a thread without the whining? Apple isn’t here. What is the point?

I run beta versions of iOS on my driver iPhone. I have old stuff. I have seen many problems. I also seen Apple reach back to me on the flaws I’ve reported in the Feedback app to fix problems many times. Apple is listening to users. Apple is catering to most of the users. Apple does have a bug bounty. Upgradable computers just are not what most users care about. I’ve never upgraded my Mac Mini. At some point I will pull it apart and replace the hard drive.

I put my complaints in the Apple websites and the Feedback app.
Well that's great for you, you are free to do whatever you want .However I wish to comment about my negative experiences with the mac and I wish to do it here because apple are implementing ARM and their obstructive and walled garden policies affect my user of Trainz and in relation to pro apps , many other mac users. , I don't care what you think, but I do resent you telling me what to post here, if my equipment and needs differ from yours that's just too bad.

You have a history of telling other people here what they should or should not post , just because you don't want to hear negatives about apple .
You don't have the right to do that , as I said, ignore me if you don't want to hear what I have to say , but as long as I hold to the list rules, I will continue to express my opinion and back it up from personal experience if I think it pertinent..
 
Well that's great for you, you are free to do whatever you want .However I wish to comment about my negative experiences with the mac and I wish to do it here because apple are implementing ARM and their obstructive and walled garden policies affect my user of Trainz and in relation to pro apps , many other mac users. , I don't care what you think, but I do resent you telling me what to post here, if my equipment and needs differ from yours that's just too bad.

You have a history of telling other people here what they should or should not post , just because you don't want to hear negatives about apple .
You don't have the right to do that , as I said, ignore me if you don't want to hear what I have to say , but as long as I hold to the list rules, I will continue to express my opinion and back it up from personal experience if I think it pertinent..

One thread, which I created, gives me a history? It was asking, not telling. Ok whatever.

You have yet to understand my viewpoint. You see things as a negative. I see things as positive. Apple move to ARM will be opening up development on the Mac. More developers are experienced with iOS CPU and GPU than Mac programming. Xcode, which is free allows native development on all Apple platforms, except HomePod. Further there is already ARM versions of Trainz, because they are on iOS. Those iOS versions can directly work on the Apple Silicon/ARM Macs as they use the same CPU and GPU family. With some work, those iOS versions, or the Mac versions can be coded to work nicely on both iOS and Mac. Instead of one software for Mac and one for iOS, total development time can be cut down. They are already working on Trainz Driver 3 for iOS. iOS versions use Metal.
 
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Please don't make me ignore you both, that wouldn't leave many macOS users for me to communicate with :)

Honestly, I'm gonna say the same. This was meant to be a peaceful thread, and half of it is filled with arguing. Dangavel, talking about your struggles with Macs is technically on topic, as the future of both Macs and Trainz on macOS is (somewhat) at stake and is relevant to this thread. But I don't want to see anymore arguing.

Got it? Good.
 
And capdimont - no offense - but you kinda need to complain about something in Macs. Even the little things could be a big deal. I'm worried that as soon as Apple cuts production of Intel Macs, they just say, "Ok, no macOS 11.2 for Intel Macs." (Well, that would be dumb, but it is a decent worry.)

I'm sorry I'm being rude. I am a very nice person. But I want my thread (yes I am the original poster) be a peaceful thread.

Got it? Good.
 
Since nvidia are buying arm it may well affect the future implementation of the platform in relation to the game, use of MORE nvidia features in trainz which apple will not implement due to their spat with the company might be an important factor in future. I'd like to know if my current machine will be able to use trainz 2020 or if i have to move to Pc , thus apples actions are very important to me as it may well cost me more in the near future to keep playing this game .

To clarify the TurfFx situation, I've looked up the software requirements, it requires DirectX 11 which Apple don't have, so short of Apple and Microsoft collaborating in some way, can't see that problem getting resolved any time soon.
 
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