Point Vs Switch Vs Turnout?

Hi,

I'm wondering which of the three is more correct for model railways, prototype railways and Trainz, and, which term do you personally prefer and use?

A book I have on model railways (1001 Model Railway Questions & Answers by Cyril Freezer) says:

"Q278: Why is turnout often used instead of the correct term, point?
In fact, turnout is the more correct form - point is the proper usage within the hobby, but it should be made clear that the word point has a very large number of meanings. Furthermore, it is worth pointing out that if you are discussing the hobby with an American enthusiast, it is pointless to talk about points, for even should you point to a point, you will be told very pointedly that it is a switch. You will then point to the control panel and point out to your friend that those are switches, and at that point you will probably agree that things can get confusing at times and possibly suggest that you both go off to watch a point-to-point meeting. However, if you attempt to write a similar piece of nonsense using turnout, it will turn out to be a rather pointless exercise.

Turnout - which has been used on the prototype from the outset of the railway age - is not only a non-ambiguous self-explanatory term but has the same meaning on both sides of the Atlantic."

A rather clever piece of writing, don't you think?

Kieran.

Turnout - which has been used on the prototype from the outset of the railway age - is not only a non-ambiguous self-explanatory term but has the same meaning on both sides of the Atlantic.

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Wikipedia doesn't agree with that .......................

Turnout may refer to:
Railroad switch (US), turnout or set of points, a mechanical installation enabling trains to be guided from one railway track to another

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When you check "point" Wiki states:

Points, a railroad switch (British English)

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Myself, I've always used "points", as have most of my railway associates (as far as I remember).

In England we have poor turnouts.
They frequently occur at national events such as lower league football matches and political elections.


Back on topic, I’ve always called them points.

Does anyone else remember the old 1950s black and white Saturday evening BBC TV music programme, “Six five Special”? It's theme tune (here) started with the lyrics, “Over the points, over the points, over the points..”

Not once did I hear the word turnout, or switch, used in connection with UK railways in my formative years.

I have always used the term points and always recall hearing the term 'frozen points' used by rail staff in Scotland and also in the media. However, at the preserved railway I work on in Ireland, they are referred to as both points and turnouts though I tend to use points out of sheer habit.

call them turnouts or switches, but points not so much. the parts of the turnout/switch that move - those are the points.

When working on a US RR, if you call it a turnout, train crews will make fun of you, and say: "What do you have ... an HO trainset" ?

cascaderailroad said:

When working on a US RR, if you call it a turnout, train crews will make fun of you, and say: "What do you have ... an HO trainset" ?

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eh, not necessarily true. they are called turnouts during construction and design at least. the crews might just call them switches and thought to make fun of you but that doesn't mean anything ( i would suspect a fair number of crews also have HO trainsets). when i worked in drafting i recall the track switches being marked with certain 'turnout specifications' as well as the steel ties they used on one project being 'turnout ties' as they all came in a predetermined bundle.

when i was young and playing with my models trains i always called them 'switch tracks'.

I know an engineer for NS and asked this just the other day.

Switch or Turnout, not points.

Cross tie not sleeper.

cascaderailroad said:

When working on a US RR, if you call it a turnout, train crews will make fun of you, and say: "What do you have ... an HO trainset" ?

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I've never known a real train worker that was very fond of using the proper "technical terms". They'd just as soon call a caboose a "crummy" or the "monkey box" and call the Trainmaster a.... oops, I probably shouldn't use the nickname I had in mind here!

At any rate, in the U.S., turnout is the proper technical term for the whole contraption, and switch is the name of the parts of the turnout that actually move. So yes, a switchman does switch cars, and trains do go through switches, and turnouts can be unlocked with a switch key.

I'd hate to run into the guy who could "throw a turnout". He'd be really big and strong as they are really heavy!:hehe:

jlp1551 said:

I'd hate to run into the guy who could "throw a turnout". He'd be really big and strong as they are really heavy!:hehe:

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Spiteful wives who throw points are much more dangerous.

Be warned. If you seek revenge, always dig two graves.

Things didn't "turnout" too well for either of them, and all because he "switched" to another partner.

Back to the point,

I usually use 'point' for model railways and the prototype, as that's what I've grown up reading in UK and Aussie books and magazines, being the avid LMS fan that I am.

Turnout I personally see as 'American' so I do not use it (nothing against out Yankee friends, it's just that Australia uses the UK names and as I've heard them the most I use them), and I only occasionally use 'switch'. You could say that I switch between the two, which turn(s)out for me quite well.

Kieran.

I think a great deal of the difference in the US and UK comes from the early development of railroads.

Keep in mind, in the very early days of railroading in the US, the most common type of switch (I use that term for a reason) you would see, even in some mainline service, was the "Stub Switch."



Unlike the types of points used in the UK, these US switches actually physically moved the rail to mate up with the part which branched away from the switch point. Because of this, it became very common then to call later types, though rightly points, "switch."

Here's the thing though, the UK never (beyond some narrow gauge lines) used stub switches. In fact, they favored a type of switch that featured "pointed" blades or rails which moved to allow the train to change directions.



So, in the UK it became more common to call these "points" when they really did the same thing as the above mentioned stub switches.

Turnouts makes things curious. Turnout is a proper term, though it doesn't come from railroads per se.

The term turnout first really made its way onto the scene when dealing with street trackage, in particular trolley lines. The reasoning is kinda simple, since these allowed a car to "turn out" of one direction and head down another street. Curiously though, most trolley type turnouts were unique in that they only had a single movable blade which the train didn't ride on, but instead forced the outside wheels to follow, and the inside wheels (away from the blade) moved through an open pan type frog. (riding on their flange.)

(the above is a single bladed turnout)

Now, in the US things really started getting muddled when interurban lines started operating freight work. It became common then for inter urban crews to call "switches" turnouts, and vice versa.

When you really get down to it, they're all pretty much the same thing, with some exceptions of course; but the differences in terminology really boils down to history.

Common terminology

I’ve just found this video which is very interesting one more than one level.

It’s a UK NetworkRail training film which appears to use more common international terminology.

Both the virtual and real footage are really good, illustrating the way it all works.

Note also the brilliant graphics, showing the triangular polygons which form the rail and switch construction (on a baseboard grid)!

It can be done. When will developers achieve this in Trainz?

Cheers
Casper

Hello Casper,

We are working on the problem.


Krisz :wave:

Stub Turnouts were the most flawless, as the rail had a constant connection, that would not wear out, as tapered points do.

On the PRR, and some modern RR's, movable frogs lock into place, so that no wheel hammering impact is on the frog point.

http://www.billspennsyphotos.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=60170555

A 9 part nighmare switch ... See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBdCN7Ssuc0&feature=fvwp&NR=1

bekaember said:

Hello Casper,

We are working on the problem.


Krisz :wave:

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Suggest you stop working on the problem Krisz. Don't make it any worse. It's already bad enough, and has been for years!

It would be much better to work on the solution!

Cheers
Casper

p.s. What are you up to; a new track development perhaps?

mezzoprezzo said:

Suggest you stop working on the problem Krisz. Don't make it any worse. It's already bad enough, and has been for years!

It would be much better to work on the solution!

Cheers
Casper

p.s. What are you up to; a new track development perhaps?

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I promise that it won't be as complicated like my catenary system. :hehe:
It will be a fully prototipycal system, based on proper blueprints (EU-standard). Tracks and matching turnouts.


Krisz :wave:

Hi,

I am really grateful for this thread. Apart from getting interesting insight in the differences in usage of terms between England, the US and other countries where the English language is spoken, I finally learned the term "stub switch". Its german equivalent is "Schleppweiche" and I never knew how to name it correctly it in my english descriptions of turnouts. Until now no one in the forum could tell me the proper name.


Stub switches can be traced back to the pre-steam days of wooden rails, where one or two sections of movable rail could be pointed towards the desired pieces of stationary track. I could well imagine, that the english term of "point" originated here.
During the 1840s stub switches both two- as well as three-way types were commonly used at e.g. the Grandduchy of Baden Railways in Southern Germany. Since wrongly set switches could cause derailments, they were gradually replaced by conventional blade type turnouts. The use of stub switches was eventually banned altogether on german railways.

Incidentially the german term "Weiche", itself an abbreviation of "Ausweiche" used in 19th century documents, corresponds more closely to turnout than either point or switch.
I would like to remind readers, that both stub switches and blade type turnouts can be built in great detail in trainz. It needs two assets, a buildable with three pieces of invisible track. The mesh shows the non-motile parts of the turnout. The three sections of track are linked by invisible track with one spline point, which is placed into the centre of the buildable.
Attached to this spline point is an asset kind "lever". The two meshes of the lever incorporate not only the levers but also the moving parts of track or blade, respectively. They differ only in the position of levers and blades. The central spline point needs to be shifted carefully to put the blades into their proper position.
When clicking at the arrows, kind lever switches from one mesh to the other. One might argue, that an animated kind lever would be more realistically, but the operation of hand- and mechanically operated levers is quick and sort of jerky and even the movements of electrically powered turnouts are quick, it may not worth while to attempt animated levers and blades.
This approach works with tree-way turnouts as well. It can also be used to build complex turnout arrays, where different turnouts and crossings are moved into each other to make the railway stations more compact.

When seen from locomotive cameras, either external or internal one, such turnouts are looking very realistically.

Cheers,

Konni