[Tutorial] Using ASB Crossover to set up complicated junctions

lrt505

Light Rail Trainz
Here are some tutorials and demonstrations of using ASB Crossover to set up Grand Unions and Triangular Junctions. Hope everyone like it.:D

It tackles the problem of three trains stucking together at a crossover between three tracks, when three trains arrive at the same time.

 
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Very nice!

A question though..... When I tested ASB Crossover like this, it worked for a while but I eventually always came across the same problem.

ASB Crossover does not switch points! It just chooses which train to let through first. Trainz AI does the point switching. That's fine so long as they both agree but every now and again Trainz AI will switch the points for one train.... and Crossover will tell the other train to go, (which now has points against it and can't).

This was a problem I encountered for a standard double track turnout so I wrote ASB Turnout which also controls the points, taking the potential conflict away.

I see your system works.... Have you done something to get over this potential conflict or do you think its just lucky so far?

Very clever use though! Congratulations.

Boat
 
lrt505 i was very glad to see this clip as ive been testing this for a few months now , and now using the ASB Crossovers with much success. (at loooooong last)

One thing i dont see in this clip and was a problem i was trying to get rid of for ages,but now solved it was....any trains passing left to right on the same double track...
The problem i had with that was train A coming from the left would stop Train B coming from the right....which was wrong as no train crossed over one another.....but the triggers and control box would control the lights stopping said Train B (right) when Train A (left) hit trigger...as it would think by putting signal to stop to train B ,was not letting it cross over train A's path....as it thinks train A is passing straight over train B's path and not turning left...

will work vice versa depending on which trigger is hit first by which train, A or B....

crossover01.jpg



Which should allow train B to cross as train A is not crossing B trains path
crossover02.jpg



I'd love to hear from you if how you got over this yourself ?

I did buy Boats ASB DTT kit for left and right...which i must say is a very good piece of kit.....but was way to long for my uses setting my driver commands for my AI train to travel 100 baseboards and hoping i didnt miss out a left or right junction, So i returned to the ASB Crossovers and stuck at it till i got it to work the way i wanted....so praise to Boat again as he too made the ASB Crossovers amongst many other solution solving devices.

I'll try when i get time to post a clip..but dont really get on here as much as i'd like

Regards
 
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Hi Brad, (BRClass66)

ASB Crossover will always have this problem with a Double Track Turnout. Crossover was designed only to protect the crossover and as you say, it doesn’t know which way the point is set so it will stop even those it doesn’t need to stop, (That’s if Trainz AI and Crossover happen to be in sync with each other).

You say you have solved the problem but I‘m not clear how. You could put a Trigger on the left line to overwrite the signal set red by Crossover to turn green. But it would only turn green at the last minute after the train has passed over the point..... So not very effective. You mentioned in your PM to me that your trains slow down when you use Crossover for this but not if you use ASB Turnout. Turnout is much more sophisticated than Crossover as it can set the points and signals from 4 blocks away by the use of countdown triggers. This means that with ASB Turnout, trains should not slow down at a junction unless there is another train in the way. Crossover doesn’t have that feature.

If you have already paid your £1.89 for ASB Turnout then it really will work properly and reliably in this situation so you should us it. Using ASB Crossover for turnouts will always be messy and likely to fail.

I take your point about needing a lot of left/right driver commands for a big board.... But you don’t have to use Turnout for all your turnouts. Just use it for the busy ones. If you don’t mind risking train-thru train events you can still use a normal Trainz Navigate-To Command for most of them. Normal Trainz Commands are fully compatible with ASB Turnout in a Driver Command sequence. (Of course using Navigate-To will put your train into AI Mode so no good if you want to drive manually, as you can with ASB Turnout)

Always intrigued though to see how people are pushing the limits of my stuff..... But ASB Turnout does have a lot more going for it that ASB Crossover!

Regards,

Boat
 
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Since the trains may stop at the junction and causes delay, this solution is suitable for light rail rather than heavy rail.

I have purchased ASB DTT (left hand side). However since I am mainly working on light rails, I seldom use it and use ASB Crossover instead.

Using 3 ASB DTT channels to build a triangular junction is not feasible, since there is a hazard of trains blocking each other when three trains enter at the same time.

7668723282_6c06751054_c.jpg


Of course I hope boat would make an "ASB Triangular Junction" system or even an "ASB Grand Union" system.

It is still not possible to build a level full Grand Union using ASB Crossover since there are Three-way double turnout.

Meanwhile, to prolong the distance between the point and the crossing in triangular junction, you may consider the following configuration (but uses more space):

800px-LR_Junction_outside_D01.JPG


P.S. I am planning to test building a triangular junction using one ASB Turnout and one ASB Crossover channel, the ASB Turnout is used at the most busy two directions.
 
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Hi, lrt505

It is still not possible to build a level full Grand Union using ASB Crossover since there are Three-way double turnout.
directions.
No, and as you say even using ASB Turnout as well would be pushing it as that type of track set-up is beyond its remit.

Using 3 ASB DTT channels to build a triangular junction is not feasible, since there is a hazard of trains blocking each other when three trains enter at the same time.
Yes, the triangle sides need to be long enough for the whole length of the train to clear each junction. The layout in your photo may work though! If that's what they do in the real world then it must be OK.
I know you have seen it... but for others, there's more info on the triangle problem here.... http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?84281-Boat-goes-Payware-ASB-Turnout!/page3

Of course I hope boat would make an "ASB Triangular Junction" system or even an "ASB Grand Union" system.
Well I will look into it. I'm just not sure how much other interest there would be. I presume they have that type of junction in Hong Kong... and I've ridden across one in Chicago.... Anywhere else? Anyone interested?

Just to clarify for anyone who's confused...
ASB Crossover is a protection system for diamond crossings and is free on the DLS.
ASB Turnout is a protection system for Double Track Turnouts and is payware.

Cheers,

Boat
 
Well i got a clip done with help from a friend and his account.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaH6fRfE29A


Sorry about the quality,But never used Fraps and all the other programes to get it to youtube,

But you can still see how the AI trains run the route with a fair amount of ease ...Be it waiting for a train to pass and then turning right....or carrying straight down the line.with just navigate to a few trackmarks or navigate to industry

I have also set up a small layout to test 3 trains running on a loop ..and after returning a few hours later was glad to see them still following the trackmarks i had set and all mainly done with ASB crossovers


Regards
Brad
 
OK, well if you have that working 100% reliably just using Crossover, I'm impressed.

As I say, when I tried it, the Crossover Controller and Trainz AI often had differeing views on life.

But if it works for you... go for it.

All the best,

Boat
 
I will try to build a triangular junction mixing ASB Crossover and ASB Turnout. The latter is used in the main line.
 
Hi Boat,

Well it seems to be working on 12 junctions up to now..without a hitch....but i am still testing it...
I do use one other trigger but only as a safety measure no real need as trains useing same line and as close isn't happening.But saying that 10 junctions like the one in the clip are only done by your ASB Crossovers
I have been thinking today....that maybe if 2 trains coming from oppisite sides hit there triggers at exactly the same time that then it may be game over...
but chances of that i guess is slim...

lrt505,

Will lookforward to seeing the outcome on that..

triangularjunction0.jpg



I have setup 2 triangular junctions with my system on a small layout like a figure eight with the 2 mirror triangular junctions on each end making a loop.
It ran for 8 minutes with 4 consists then 1 train just stopped on the 3rd time around..Where as the other 3 carry on..... no idea why as the mirrored side doesn't get the same effect..still not bad considering the amount of junctions

EDIT :-
Train starts again after a minute or so ..but no emergency stop comes up..and is running now..

But ill keep trying as it should work but maybe not on as tight a scale as your triangular junction

Regards
 
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My way to reduce the risk of "gameover" is to prolong the distance between the diverging switch and the "entry" ASB Crossover Trigger. Also, reduce the trigger radius.

It becomes successful in my "double crossover between two parallel tracks" test. However, the track layout becomes longer since the length between the entry switch and the diamond crossing should be prolonged.

P.S. My light rail system working on uses AlTerr's U-bahn Frankfurt trains and the minimum curve radius is 25 - 30m.
 
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Quadrent signals.

Am only interested in running steam using either upper or lower quadrents. From boat's comments in his excellent tutorial/s it appears his system is not supported.

Before I purchase, can anyone confirm that they have been succesful with quadrents?
 
It ran for 8 minutes with 4 consists then 1 train just stopped on the 3rd time around..

I continue to be impressed. But I still think using ASB Crossover in this way is a bit like driving down the motorway blindfold. It will go wrong eventually!

For the record, when I tested ASB Turnout I wasn't happy till I could leave saturation trains running overnight and find them still running the next morning.

But keep it up!


Am only interested in running steam using either upper or lower quadrents. From boat's comments in his excellent tutorial/s it appears his system is not supported.

Before I purchase, can anyone confirm that they have been succesful with quadrents?

Hi.

In theory, both ASB Crossover and ASB Turnout will work with any signal, be they electric or semaphore, (pointing up or down). In theory!

All both ASBs do to a signal is to turn a chosen one to danger using a standard Trainz Script call. It doesn't matter what type of signal that is. The script within that signal, written by that signal's creator should use that call and set itself to danger. When the line is clear my ASB will set the signal to its standard Trainz state, ie. Automatic. The signal's script again taking over and setting the correct visual aspect.

The problem occurs because of the way the script in some signals work. The ASBs only send out one 'danger' call. All types of signal will then set to danger and most stay that way until told to go to Automatic. However, the script in some signals continually looks down the track to see what's happening. The ASB has probably set danger because a train is crossing the line ahead. A situation not recognized by Trainz AI. In consequence the 'rogue' signal thinks, "why have I gone to danger? There are no trains ahead of me. I will go back to clear!" So, a fraction of a second later having gone 'red', it will go 'green' again. So fast you won't even see it. Therefore these signals will not work with ASBs, (Or as far as I can tell, any other rule that set signals to red).

There are some electric signals that do that and some semaphore ones. (Actually some semaphore ones will set the signal to stop for an AI train... but the mechanical arm display works independently using the track search above. So the train will stop even though the arm says go!)

As to which signal works and which doesn't is trail and error. BUT! Easy way to tell. Download ASB Crossover which is free on the DLS. (Its a TRS 2004 asset but works in TS12). If your signals work with that, they will work with ASB Turnout.

Some semaphore work OK as I have used them for a test some time ago, (including junction diverge), but can't remember which.

Cheers,

Boat

UPDATE - Just found this test I video I did using semaphores. Can you recognise the signals?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpjkeh5fRJA
 
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I have successfully built the triangular junction using ASB Turnout and ASB Crossover.

The ASB Turnout manages the mainline with right-hand diverging switch crossing, while ASB Crossover manages the third pair of track.


sxo4l.png


-----
Updated 2012/12/05 09:13 UTC

In a run test, two trains jams again in the junction.
 
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lrt505,
Well done there looks really good to...

I to had success, With the little time i had i just wanted it to work....

ASB CROSSOVERS used on the ASB TURNOUT Route/Session ASB DTT DEMO LHM for my 11 AI consists...

The only difference on this route is i took station away along with fuel and docks industry and of cause placing of signals

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=jKYhcT-F4JM

apologies for my poor camera work..Never a film maker be,But does what it was intended to do anyway and shows consists just going about
following Trackmarks i laid at random,with each consist having its own trackmarks and passing through the 12 crossover junctions without a hitch

I ran this route for 3 hours with no conflict... No trains stopping or any gridlocks.
The comsist with the longest lap took 9.5 minutes.So an average of 19.5 times around the route for each in 3 hours.
I then placed the 11 AI trains in different locations on the same route so as to get different out comes,,Result ..no conflict.

I have set this up on another test route and also a favorite route of mine (17 crossover junctions) and all runs even better as some junction arent as close together as the ASB DTT DEMO LHM route..

I intend to test run this again for 24hr's when i get back in a few day..but cant see the outcoming being any different.

Regards
Brad
 
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Semaphores

Hi Boat,

Many thanks for reply.
Apologise for delay in replying. Am in Kuala Lumpur for Xmas family reunion.

Best,
ess1
 
Ihave successfully built the triangular junction using ASB Turnout and ASBCrossover.

The ASB Turnout manages the mainline with right-hand diverging switch crossing,while ASB Crossover manages the third pair of track.

In a run test, two trains jams again in the junction.
Hi lrt505,

Yes, I see what you're trying to do here. You may be able to get this working for slow light-rail trams. The main difficulty I see is that the Crossover Triggers are very close to the 'crossover' so they will only clear when the tram reaches the junction. No chance of setting things up from far away. Probably the best you can do at the moment though if your trams are too long to clear each junction, (triangle side) individually. I will do a dedicated Triangular ASB one day!


lrt505,
I to had success, With the little time i had i just wanted it to work....

ASB CROSSOVERS used on the ASB TURNOUT Route/Session ASB DTT DEMO LHM for my 11AI consists...

The only difference on this route is i took station away along with fuel anddocks industry and of cause placing of signals

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKYhcT-F4JM

Regards
Brad
Hi Brad,

Well done again. I still don’t quite know how you are doing it but I can’t help but point out what ASB Turnout will do better....

Firstly, since you’re using TrackMarks to switch the points, all your trains will have to be AI. You have lost ability to mix in Manually driven trains with the AI ones.
Another point is that you surely won’t be able to set the junctions well before a train arrives. This will mean even express trains will have to slow down. With Turnout you can set junction paths up to 4 signal blocks in advance. Turnout then keeps track of the individual train through each block, right down to the junction. Crossover only knows it’s in there somewhere.

As I say, you must have a secret method! Looking at you video, the first junction we see has a train coming towards us which stops because it is about to turn right in the path of the approaching train. That's fine and ASB Crossover will do that. However, ASB Crossover on its own would also stop that approaching train, even if it were turning left and did not need to stop. This is because Crossover does not know which way the train wants to go. But you seem to show the same junction later where this does not happen. Magic!

Also at 5'58" into the video I notice that a train gets a green before the other train crossing has completely cleared the junction. The ASB Crossover Controller however doesn't give its clear until a few seconds later. So you must be doing something else too! Would you like to email the cdp of this so I can see what you're doing? Intriguing.

In the meantime, see if you can set up a route as busy as this one just using Crossover! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qygORtp5-6c

HiBoat,

Many thanks for reply.
Apologise for delay in replying. Am in Kuala Lumpur for Xmas family reunion.

Best,
ess1
No worries....Have a good Christmas,

Boat
 
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