Multiplayer Major Flaw - This Tag Issue Needs Removed - Locally Modified

sniper297 said:

Quote myself, "Is she right? Do the developers all believe multiplayer is Practically Perfect in Every Way as is, there's no need to improve anything?"

I take your last answer as "Yes"? We can find no common ground here, you believe nothing needs to be fixed?

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I never said anything of the sort, and you know it. I didn't really bother to answer the question because it's an obvious troll rather than an attempt at discussion. Of course nothing is ever perfect and we can always find ways to improve things.

In the extremely limited context of the point that we are discussing here, I'm happy with what we have now and we don't have any plans to change it. If you want to discuss broader topics then of course there are many things that can be fixed or improved. For example, I've already made the point above that we're not happy with the problems that some people are reporting with the download process.

kind regards,

chris

Wasn't an attempt at trolling, it was an attempt to clarify your position. OP stated that she was giving up trying to convince you that it's seriously flawed, I'm trying to find some kind of middle ground for discussion of what CAN be improved. If anything. I don't think it's a buggy piece of junk, but I don't think it's close to perfection either, the truth is actually about halfway between if you look at it dispassionately.

sniper297 said:

I don't think it's a buggy piece of junk, but I don't think it's close to perfection either, the truth is actually about halfway between if you look at it dispassionately.

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I'm happy that the multiplayer system is working as we intend.

In one hypothetical ideal world, all possible content would be built-in, there would not be any need for content creation since all the content would already be available, and so you would never need to download anything. I think we can agree that this would give a better multiplayer experience. However, we don't live in that world and so we need to handle downloading content and ensuring that all participants end up with an equal and fair multiplayer gameplay experience. There are many different techniques for this, each with their own tradeoffs (how much chance of failure? how much flexibility when it comes to content creation? how much protection against cheating? how many manual steps? how much bandwidth will it use? how long do you have to wait? what do we do about copyrighted materials? etc.)

Since we already have a single official repository of free content, which we have the right to redistribute, we have selected a model where all necessary multiplayer content is automatically sourced from the DLS. It reduces end-user interaction to a single click (barring any faults elsewhere.)

It has the upsides of:
* The user doesn't have to worry about where to find content, or which version to use, or whether it's compatible with other users' versions of the content.
* The user doesn't have to worry about whether the content can legally be downloaded.

It has the downsides of:
* Not allowing the use of content which is not licensed for DLS distribution.
* Expecting the user to have a suitable internet connection such that they are happy to let Trainz download the necessary content.
* The DLS interfaces (website, CM, etc) don't always present a clear picture of whether a given route/session will work on your version of Trainz. This isn't a problem specific to multiplayer, but it's something that is appearing in your criticisms above so I'll list it here.

I'm sure you can add a few more details on each side of the argument, but that's the way we look at it.

I agree that it doesn't necessarily achieve everything that everyone might possibly want. But it achieves what we want.

kind regards,

chris

Okay, that last part "it achieves what we want" essentially means you have no plans to make any major changes and trying to convince you otherwise is an exercise in futility. Straight answers are always the best, translated into my language "it is what it is, suck it up and buy a first class ticket" means I either accept it and deal with what I got, or move elsewhere, no hard feelings. I still think the whole setup is like cracking imaginary walnuts with a pile driver, and a huge waste of bandwidth, but I'll concede the argument is lost and find something else to rag youse guys about.

sniper297 said:

Okay, that last part "it achieves what we want" essentially means you have no plans to make any major changes

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Yes. I've been pretty adamant about that throughout this conversation. I'm very open to discussion regarding bugs and possible improvements to the features, but we have little interest in changing the underlying principles of how the system is built. We're aware of the trade-offs; I'm happy to discuss the pro's and con's publicly but I don't expect that you'll bring up any points that we haven't already discussed internally.

I still think the whole setup is like cracking imaginary walnuts with a pile driver, and a huge waste of bandwidth, but I'll concede the argument is lost and find something else to rag youse guys about.

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Sounds fair

I think one of the points of contention here is whether people care about that "huge waste of bandwidth". It's obvious that there will be people on each side of the fence. People with dialup, or who are forced to use expensive 3G data connections, will obviously see this as a big deal. I personally think that this market is small and declining rapidly- so it doesn't make sense for us to target a future-looking feature at such a market. Will it mean that some people will avoid multiplayer due to bandwidth concerns? Yes, but not more so than (for example) requiring an always-on connection to play a game- which seems to becoming a more common trend these days.

chris

I heard that, got Silent Hunter 1, 2, 3 and 4, won't buy 5 because it requires online play for single player games - draconian DRM. People vote with their wallets tho, apparently it's acceptable to the majority, the AYEs have it, all the NAYs siddown and shaddup.

Having just bought another first class ticket, now I gotta read this thread over again, along with the others complaining about the same thing, see where FCT or lack thereof is mentioned. Pretty much gotta think FCT or long long waits or no multiplayer.

sniper297 said:

I heard that, got Silent Hunter 1, 2, 3 and 4, won't buy 5 because it requires online play for single player games - draconian DRM. People vote with their wallets tho, apparently it's acceptable to the majority, the AYEs have it, all the NAYs siddown and shaddup.

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Yeah, same with Diablo 3. As a consumer, I'm against the concept. As a game player, I'm going to play the game regardless of what I think of the DRM. As a developer, I can sympathise with the desire to block piracy/cheating/etc. in this manner.

Pretty much gotta think FCT or long long waits or no multiplayer.

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That's a fair summary, with the possible exception that you could use a fairly "light" route with the deliberate aim of reducing the download size. As shipped, you could also play the built-in multiplayer route without doing any real downloading, although over time our content creators like to update stuff so this doesn't remain true forever.


chris

Online required to play single player? That isn't happening for me and from what's on the horizon, it won't be for a lot of people. When this game gets to that point, I will no longer support the new versions.

Well, hopefully N3V won't go that route, Ubisoft was always a firm believer in using a bomb to put out a fire in the living room, who cares how many customers we lose as long as we hang a few pirates.

"although over time our content creators like to update stuff", mea culpa - probably 3/4ths of the stuff I've uploaded has been KUID2s lately, with more to come as I find other stuff that needs to be fixed.

Mouse84 said:

When this game gets to that point, I will no longer support the new versions.

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Well, then I guess you'll be glad to know we weren't talking about this game.

chris

WindWalkr said:

My take on this is very simple- a bug is a bug and needs to be fixed. If our users are unable to download then we need to find out why and we need to resolve that.

chris

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Indeed. May I suggest that is looked into as a priority, and also look into the possibility of updating Content Manager so it can check whether an asset has been modified when it is imported.

Shane

For Multiplayer Tag Issues on Asset Data Back-Ups, Utilizing FTP Downloading then Importing into CMP, Importing Built-In Content From TS2010 to TS12, converting your content to unmodified without having to delete and redownload if made available on the DLS, or other like issue which causes significant issues utilize the following procedure:

1. Enter your TS12 Folder Directory, then located the following two folders under UserData: Original and Local
2. Open the Local Folder and Select All, then Copy.
3. Open the Original Folder and Paste.
4. Open CMP, then you MUST COMPLETE AN EXTENDED DATABASE REPAIR
5. Close CMP, Reopen CMP, then make sure you attempt to load any Missing Assets and Update Any Content Needed (Important For Multiplayer Support)

This process is very effective and the least time consuming approach. There are simple reasons why this is HIGHLY EFFECTIVE, but I would like to keep that unspoken because it could lead to N3V Patching CMP to prevent this however would require a significant overhaul.

Question when the Above Solution will be deleted or commented on regarding why NOT to approach this solution.
This will open up N3V Trainz Support to place significant efforts to modify CMP and Multiplayer. Mark my word.
Based on N3V Comments and these comments strictly reviewed as well as taken into heavy consideration, there is no side effects.

mcguirel said:

Based on N3V Comments and these comments strictly reviewed as well as taken into heavy consideration, there is no side effects.

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Despite the melodrama above, I'm quite happy to point out that we don't recommend this process and that by following the steps above you risk damaging the install. There's nothing particularly secret about the whole process, but I'd recommend against this kind of thing for the reasons outlined previously in this thread. Like all multiplayer games, Trainz is not oblivious to deliberate abuse.

kind regards,

chris

shaneturner12 said:

Indeed. May I suggest that is looked into as a priority, and also look into the possibility of updating Content Manager so it can check whether an asset has been modified when it is imported.

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I'm sure you've noticed that Tony has been paying personal attention to this issue on the forums. Unfortunately we don't have a lot of info to go on at the current time. It's widespread enough to be talked about, but not so much that we've got an accessible test case for it.

if anyone reading this has information or is interested in helping test the issue, please talk to Tony on the DLS forum.

thx,

chris

WindWalkr said:

Despite the melodrama above, I'm quite happy to point out that we don't recommend this process and that by following the steps above you risk damaging the install. There's nothing particularly secret about the whole process, but I'd recommend against this kind of thing for the reasons outlined previously in this thread. Like all multiplayer games, Trainz is not oblivious to deliberate abuse.

kind regards,

chris

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How do you conclude Melodrama as my comment eliquently predicted as well as the comment above proved my statement.

No, nothing particular secret about the process, but for you to stop this would definitely take a considerable effort far beyond that of fixing the original flaw.

Rebuttal: YOU DO NOT Damage the installation with this process as CMP TAGGING IS Dependent ON TWO THINGS - Location of the Assets into a different folder NOT REGISTRY DEPENDANT PROVIDED EMPTY UPON GAME INSTALLATION and then in sequential order an New Database. This database is just that, a database. Databases can be restructured and revised on the server and the server client will see the changes accordingly with NO HARM to the file AS LONG AS THE FILE remains available and intact. CMP is the Database Client.

Making a statement of deliberate abuse was unwarranted. You were informed by Sniper297 and then I dug deeper into this only to determine this to be even more critical. You placed multiple comments proceeding that dictated a secondary solution be found. Zec Murphy was the only one who approached this in a manner that did not reflect subject matter is dead.
When I found the solution, I made people aware and it has ZERO IMPACT or touches any ORIGINAL GAME INSTALLATION FILE.

Solved My Problem and made aware to the Trainz Community. ZERO IMPACT TO THE GAME INSTALLATION with NO INTENT TO ABUSE THE TRAINZ PROGRAM.

mcguirel said:

No, nothing particular secret about the process, but for you to stop this would definitely take a considerable effort far beyond that of fixing the original flaw.

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You're missing the point. If we really thought that this technique was a problem for us, I would have banned you yesterday when you first suggested using a workaround, instead of leaving you alone to say your part. What you're suggesting is a fairly well understood workaround, with both some benefits (as you've noted) and some serious drawbacks.

Making a statement of deliberate abuse was unwarranted.

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No, I don't think so. I've pointed out that we don't agree that the process is harmless, and I've explained some of the reasons why we say that. If you insist on going ahead with this anyway then I don't really have much more to say.

For those playing along at home: we do take abuse of the multiplayer environment seriously. Manipulation of the game files used in a multiplayer session may lead to account bans. Don't do anything too silly.


knd regards,

chris

No offense intended to anyone, but criticizing a woman for being melodramatic seems a bit like criticizing a cat for having whiskers. :wave:

That said, I'm reluctant to do EDRs unless the installation is so badly screwed up it couldn't possibly get worse, on my system the EDR worked perfectly once, screwed it up worse than before all the other times I tried it. And it takes hours, so if I have a first class ticket wouldn't it take less time to redownload all the stuff needed for a given multiplayer session? Again, I'm on your side opposing the draconian measures they took to try to head off any remotely possible insignificant problem that might be triggered every other February 29th, but this just don't seem like a practical workaround for the average user.

really?

i just dont see what the fuss is about. you would have to download these files at most one time. the files across all participating platforms MUST be the same. having the same kuid number is not enough, anything could have a number, so the only options here are comparing each file across the network each time a game is joined or making sure that each player has an unmodified asset from one location. why is that so hard to understand? seems very simple to me.

you think it would be better with a third option to join the game regardless of the differences but the session would break, and then you would complain about something else not working and demand that the issue be resolved. you cannot rely on the player to keep the files identical. that system would fall apart almost instantly. it simply isnt a case of trying to prevent something that is an insignificant problem and might happen at some point, it is preventing a problem that will happen for certain if files are not identical.

May I make a kind statement to you NorfolkSouthern37? Yes, really.

I have not changed these files and never intend to. These assets are of another person and I respect that and would never do such a thing to another person's asset under their KUID. It comes down to Locking A Tag Of Origin in CMP into the most logical area, the chump file on a local client basis. Stops SO MUCH ISSUE moving forward when things happen to people's computer hardware/software as happenned to me. What is so hard in understanding the need. With your own assigned KUID in the CMP Options, your content should never be recognized as locally modified, but I do not have any ideas regarding locking a CMP TAG on your own content.

I have respected the responses of N3V, and if they deem an account ban is what they prefer to do instead, well then I will immediate ask for a refund of TS12 and my 1 YR FCT.
I am just providing a TRUSTED means of effeciently overcoming what can become easily a very repetive issue with a database. By completeing such a task, we should be respectful in the fact that we are only saving ourself time, unexpected hassle, and overcoming any one of many personal circumstances limiting factor.

I never disrespected their view of this, but I am not downloading 35GB of data again due to how I was forced to back-up my data due to a crash.

I clearly understand N3V's view and if I were to make a Multiplayer Session on a Route, it would be my route where "Show KUID" is white or yellow based on their vision and what they deem critical.

Just best to leave this alone from here on out to anyone or any situation. Just not hungry for popcorn.

Utilize this solution AT YOUR OWN RISK and understand the potential of account banning as a result.