Multiplayer Major Flaw - This Tag Issue Needs Removed - Locally Modified

From Zec's post;

"This may change in future, however at the current time to add extra info (such as a code that CM can use to check if an asset has actually been edited in any way) would require modifying every asset on the DLS, as well as modifying CM. Such a change would also require all content to be updated to that version of CM's build (so, as an example, build 3.7), which would mean that all content on the DLS would be TS12+ only (or which ever version such a feature was added in). This isn't something we would want to do, and hence such a feature is unlikely at the current time."

Making an OPTION to disable just the "you may not play" guard bot would put the onus on the players, if they know the error checks are wrong they could play anyway with no problems. Again, whatever you do it needs SOMETHING, the way it is now people are avoiding multiplayer because it's just too much work to get a session running, and there's no way to beta test a multiplayer session using actual multiple players without uploading it first, then downloading it again. FCT is pretty much a requirement, and if the DLS isn't cooperating or updating you have to run an EDR to get it to refresh, no guarantee that will work, and if it does the KUID2 replacement system might not feel like cooperating that day, so after several hours of fooling around you're still stuck with a bot that won't allow you to play because it sees something it doesn't like. I've been playing flightsim, subsim, first person shooter, and RPG multiplayer games for 20 years, and all sometimes have occasional problems when one member is missing a "skin" or model the others are using. But the game companies always felt that was the players' responsibility to make sure everything matched. If it's a problem, quit the game, download and install whatever is out of synch, then try again, it's always been a lot faster and easier than satisfying this TS12 multiplayer bot. Want more people playing multiplayer, gotta do something to make playing multiplayer easier, simple as that.
 
Well, we've already answered the first, but as to the second- why would you need to fiddle with assets on the DLS? I assume that you are not referring to the person creating the route, here?

i think he was referring to this:

This may change in future, however at the current time to add extra info (such as a code that CM can use to check if an asset has actually been edited in any way) would require modifying every asset on the DLS, as well as modifying CM. Such a change would also require all content to be updated to that version of CM's build (so, as an example, build 3.7), which would mean that all content on the DLS would be TS12+ only (or which ever version such a feature was added in). This isn't something we would want to do, and hence such a feature is unlikely at the current time.
 
...too much work to get a session running, and there's no way to beta test a multiplayer session using actual multiple players without uploading it first, then downloading it again.

Are you making the assumption that all players are content creators? All of your points appear to be specific to the content creation side of things, rather than the multiplayer experience itself. Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you.

chris
 
I've no idea what you're talking about. We are not currently selling any multiplayer routes, and have no plans to do so. There are plenty of multiplayer routes available on the DLS.

chris

With all do respect, the issues at hand with Multiplayer Supports this market BIG TIME. It was not a statement of fact, but more in lines with a line of sight of the future.

if your locally created assets are not modified and are the same as those on the DLS, why does it matter (aside from the length of time it takes to download or bandwidth restrictions) if you get them from the DLS one time. if they are not changed you lose nothing, if they are changed they are backed up anyhow and still lose nothing.

another interesting thing about this thread, is that after all the fuss about asset version support, you see here a cry to have them essentially all updated to the latest software just to meet your own needs. funny how everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too...

This is my whole point but at the same token I see the direction of your post opposite of why I am displaying what is a Major Software FLAW in CMP. Why must you redownload the same asset OVER AND OVER AND OVER if you face a Game Software Installation or even worse an complete computer reformat. There should be absolutely no need for the tag of a backed-up file to be listed as locally modified upon importing the back-up. Overhauling how this asset tag is placed in an asset is what needs to be significantly addressed FOR THE END USER.

If you are referencing me as in the need to have their cake and eat it too, this is not the direction of this flaw being brought into discussion or re-discussion. Again, the purpose of the post is to fully demonstrate that what worked prior to Multiplayer has major affect on the END-USER to enjoy Multiplayer in a more efficient and simplier manner. The END-USER is the one that supports the Software Developer. Is there an easy solution, not at this point? Should this be TOP PRIORITY if N3V intends for Multiplayer to be a marketable Value-Added Selling Point for TS12 and beyond, ABSOLUTELY.
 
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With all do respect, the issues at hand with Multiplayer Supports this market BIG TIME. It was not a statement of fact, but more in lines with a line of sight of the future.

Fair enough, although I've already pointed out that it's not something we're specifically interested in.


Why must you redownload the same asset OVER AND OVER AND OVER if you face a Game Software Installation or even worse an complete computer reformat.

You don't have to. If you back up the trainz installation (and I mean a proper backup; not piecemeal exports of the particular items) then you will never have this problem. If you don't reinstall frequently (or ever) then you will rarely (or never) have this problem, even without a backup. Finally, the tools are in place to ensure that this problem resolves itself- although I will freely admit that redownloading, while fully automatic, is only practical with an FCT.


There should be absolutely no need for the tag of a backed-up file to be listed as locally modified upon importing the back-up. Overhauling how this asset tag is placed in an asset is what needs to be significantly addressed FOR THE END USER.

I simply don't see this as a flaw, sorry. It's deliberate that CM can tell the difference between content downloaded from the DLS and content supplied (and potentially modified) by the user.

kind regards,

chris
 
Forced to restart my whole collection of assets per the inability to see that this is infact an issue.
Just look forward to searching thru every asset, evaluating which to keep and redownload.

Please Advise: and I mean a proper backup
 
WindWalkr (Chris),

I've also noticed that regardless of whether you use Import Content or Import CDP, both can result in the Locally Modified icon. I believe it's something to do with the commit process, which should be identifying whether any edits have indeed been made before applying the Locally Modified tag.

Shane
 
I've also noticed that regardless of whether you use Import Content or Import CDP, both can result in the Locally Modified icon.

Yes, that's correct. CM has no way to determine what (if any) changes you've made to the content, so it is all considered a local version.

kind regards,

chris
 
I thought it may be. I see one potential problem with it, which will affect Multiplayer.

Due to another issue (which is also related to Content Manager) involving downloads not completing, users are having to download these assets manually using FTP. Unfortunately when these assets are imported, they are classed as locally modified even though they are unmodified assets direct from the Download Station.

I'd like to know what your take on this is, as this is part of the problem.

Shane
 
I thought it may be. I see one potential problem with it, which will affect Multiplayer.

Due to another issue (which is also related to Content Manager) involving downloads not completing, users are having to download these assets manually using FTP. Unfortunately when these assets are imported, they are classed as locally modified even though they are unmodified assets direct from the Download Station.

I'd like to know what your take on this is, as this is part of the problem.

Shane


Thank You Shane - Another demonstration of what I am talking about, just did not communicate.
Structure of CMP Tagging NEEDS Revised.

Not battling this anymore. Place it into the lose category. Enjoy downloading your own content once you place significant effort to make it.
 
Well, yes and no. Obviously I'm looking at it from the perspective of a content creator, I have uploaded a multiplayer compatible route and a few multiplayer sessions, creating routes and sessions is what I do so I don't have any other perspective on tap. But I'm trying to look at it from the casual player perspective as well, especially those who have limited time to play. "redownloading, while fully automatic, is only practical with an FCT." Having a complete backup and/or a separate copy that's set up specifically for multiplayer helps, but where that fails is with KUID2 replacements. I doubt I could find the thread now since the forum search still isn't working right, but remember the Mac multiplayer problem with Chicago Metro? The guy downloaded route and session, couldn't get it to work on the Mac because something was "locally modified". Several days later the problem was traced to a grain commodity which has a different KUID2 number in Mac than it does in TS12 - the session uses a covered grain hopper, the hopper has that grain commodity in its KUID table, the KUID number in the grain hopper's config matches the built in number in both TS2010 and Mac, but the one in TS12 is different. So the multiplayer bot sees that he has Grain HP,<kuid:46162:60001> and insists he must have Grain HP,<kuid2:46162:60001:9> instead or he can't play - and he has no way to download that update, it's not on the DLS. "For the want of a nail the shoe was lost" etc, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about, not Speed Racer hacking his engine spec to go 4000mph. Whatever the update for the grain commodity was, is it really that critical that it would ruin a multiplayer game if one guy had a different version of the grain commodity, or modified the hopper car to have corn as a default load instead? Other example leaving Mac out, I got a carefully backed up copy of TS12 with IntenCity route and multiplayer session installed and configured, works perfectly. Couple months later I get the itch to play that again with somebody, but the bot insists it doesn't match. Got a KUID2 on the DLS for something - but it's an unknown location? Okay, now you're stuck, gotta do an EDR and pray it works, after the EDR finishes maybe if you're lucky enough that day it will find and download that KUID2 replacement - but now everything else is locally modified.

At that point most people are just going to give up in disgust and go play Call of Duty or Quake multiplayer, something that doesn't require hours of maintenance for each hour of gameplay.
 
Found it using google.

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?76753-Cant-start-Multiplayer-session-in-TS-MAC

This is where I so often get into a "user error" program loop, developer says the technology is there, but it's a random roll of the dice if it works. Starting on page 3 primarily, in post 49 you say,

"this would mean that the session creator would need to specify <kuid:46162:60001> for use in the session- then both users would be able to load the session."

And on from there, the session creator cannot specify which version of the KUID, when the session is saved, surveyor makes that decision.

Pretty sure my Chicago accent isn't the entire problem here;

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?79945-Multiplayer-search-inop&p=873796#post873796

Since I assume Phil has an Australian accent and he don't get it either.
 
Due to another issue (which is also related to Content Manager) involving downloads not completing, users are having to download these assets manually using FTP.

My take on this is very simple- a bug is a bug and needs to be fixed. If our users are unable to download then we need to find out why and we need to resolve that.

chris
 
And on from there, the session creator cannot specify which version of the KUID, when the session is saved, surveyor makes that decision.

Yes.. and no.

Surveyor uses whichever version the content creator has installed. If the creator is using content that is not available to the other user for whatever reason, then the other user will not be able to use the route in multiplayer, it's that simple.

This isn't really any different from not being able to play because you don't have the route, or because you don't have a necessary loco. If the only problem asset is something small and unimportant, then that's unfortunate but also something trivial for the original content creator to resolve if they wish to do so.

kind regards,

chris
 
From the content creator's viewpoint - How? I should buy an ipad, Mac, and Android, then the Trainz versions for all those, and test on each one for compatibility? A bit expensive for a hobby, also a bit tedious comparing dependencies, sub dependencies, and sub-sub dependencies to make sure there are no KUID2:yadayad:2 assets in Mac that are KUID2:yadayada:5 in android hiding someplace. Since there's no way to make sure it actually will pass the multiplayer bot tests without uploading it, however carefully I check thousands of KUID numbers I'm bound to miss one or two.

From the user's viewpoint, I bought a copy of TS12 for my son so we could multiplay together, online store server crash a few days later get the serial number, copy my TS12 over to his rather than downloading all of that, and changed sniper297 to topham217, deleted my serial number and entered his. Okay, let's play! Aaargh, half a dozen multiplayer sessions I spent so much time tediously downloading so they worked perfectly no longer work, all have dependencies or sub dependencies or sub sub dependencies that need updates. Okay, let's get one working. Five hours later got it working error free on my system, he's gone to bed, try again tomorrow. Save all I downloaded to CDP, transfer to his system over the LAN, import into his content manager - sorry, after 2 hours of that, turns out save to CDP and import is considered "locally modified". Okay, so delete his TS12 folder, copy my entire TS12 folder over on the LAN, then change username and serial number to his, another two hours. That worked, we played a session together for half an hour before he had to go to bed. So 30 minutes of playing time required 9 hours of preparation. For one session. All the other multiplayer sessions that were working a few months ago need the same thing before we can play any of those.

So, buy TWO first class tickets hoping the online store is working now so it won't crash when I enter my credit card info? Or buy one, download to my system, then go through the routine of copy over LAN and change username and serial number again, more practical especially since we have low speed DSL shared through a router. Then have to do it all over again a couple months from now as more assets on the DLS get updated.

That's what the average user is looking at, if we can agree on nothing else can we at least agree that multiplayer needs some kind of work to make it more play and less work? Otherwise change the name to multiworker to give people fair warning.
 
Sniper, give it up.

Huge flaw they do not see. They do not see it therefore you will not get resolve.
As things are completely structured, Multiplayer is not a sustaining benefit.

MultiWORKER - Gotta Love It.
 
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Hee-hee, my grandparents came from The Buckeye State, what happened to hard headed persistence? :hehe:

Anyway the main way to resolve this since there are so many things we disagree on, let's find something we DO agree on and start from there. Is she right? Do the developers all believe multiplayer is Practically Perfect in Every Way as is, there's no need to improve anything?
 
From the content creator's viewpoint - How? I should buy an ipad, Mac, and Android, then the Trainz versions for all those, and test on each one for compatibility?

If you expect your content to work on each platform, then the current answer is a simple yes. If that's too expensive or too bothersome, then you will simply need to accept that your content will not necessarily work on all of the above platforms.

Likewise, if you want to be sure that your content works on TS2009, TS2010, and TS12, you will need to install each and test thoroughly.

None of this is specific to multiplayer, or even Trainz for that matter.


Since there's no way to make sure it actually will pass the multiplayer bot tests without uploading it, however carefully I check thousands of KUID numbers I'm bound to miss one or two.

Take a fresh install of Trainz. Install your route, session, and any other content that you will be uploading to the DLS. Allow CM to download any missing dependencies from the DLS. If you are left with no faults and no missing dependencies, then you are good to go for that version of Trainz.

If you want to support multiple versions of Trainz, you would need to repeat the test on each platform.


From the user's viewpoint, I bought a copy of TS12 for my son so we could multiplay together, online store server crash a few days later get the serial number, copy my TS12 over to his rather than downloading all of that, and changed sniper297 to topham217, deleted my serial number and entered his. Okay, let's play! Aaargh, half a dozen multiplayer sessions I spent so much time tediously downloading so they worked perfectly no longer work, all have dependencies or sub dependencies or sub sub dependencies that need updates. Okay, let's get one working. Five hours later got it working error free on my system, he's gone to bed, try again tomorrow. Save all I downloaded to CDP, transfer to his system over the LAN, import into his content manager - sorry, after 2 hours of that, turns out save to CDP and import is considered "locally modified". Okay, so delete his TS12 folder, copy my entire TS12 folder over on the LAN, then change username and serial number to his, another two hours. That worked, we played a session together for half an hour before he had to go to bed. So 30 minutes of playing time required 9 hours of preparation. For one session. All the other multiplayer sessions that were working a few months ago need the same thing before we can play any of those.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with the servers. For the multiplayer side of things, you're overcomplicating things by doing what you believe to be the right thing, rather than just let Trainz do its thing. All you need to do is press play and let it download what it needs.

If you are really short on download quota or have a really slow connection, then your best bet would be to configure one version of Trainz to be exactly as you like it, then duplicate that onto the second machine. As with most other software these days, that's not our intended usage pattern for installing updates, but it can work if you're really on limited access.

kind regards,

chris
 
Quote myself, "Is she right? Do the developers all believe multiplayer is Practically Perfect in Every Way as is, there's no need to improve anything?"

I take your last answer as "Yes"? We can find no common ground here, you believe nothing needs to be fixed?


 
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