Club Car Members - NEW BETA 9/18/12

Hey Guys!

More BETA stuff now in the Club Car section of the store for you. Today we are testing 2 things. First is the rolling stock we are planning to include on the Reading and Northern. Included is a 52ft Gondola, a Bethgon with gecko script, and a new ACF 3 Bay hopper in the R&N scheme.

THE REAL BETA:

What we're really testing here today is our new installers. We have created these installers so that when you download any Jointed Rail content the dependencies will also be installed with it. Gone are the days of buying an engine and then going to our store to search for any dependencies that you may need. Simply download and run the .exe and the installer should install everything for you without the need to touch or open CMP.

ANY AND ALL BUGS TO REPORT WITH THE INSTALLER ONLY: Please send us an email to sean@jointedrail.com

Sean is our new full time programmer and will be working with us in the office on a day to day basis, we hope to be able to deliver some fantastic stuff with this ever expanding team.

Thanks and most of all.... ENJOY!

Jointed Rail

Would it be hard to add a log-in function linked to a JR account in the installer as some form of DRM to prevent people from handing out files? I don't know how big of a problem that is for you guys, but it seems like anything you could do to prevent it would be a good thing. I don't think it would be that much of a hassle on the on the consumer end.

edit: Gah, it says my build number isn't right. Are these not compatible with TS2010 or is it just because I bought it through Steam? I've been looking for an excuse to buy TS2012.

jointedrail said:

Hey Guys!

More BETA stuff now in the Club Car section of the store for you. Today we are testing 2 things. First is the rolling stock we are planning to include on the Reading and Northern. Included is a 52ft Gondola, a Bethgon with gecko script, and a new ACF 3 Bay hopper in the R&N scheme.

THE REAL BETA:

What we're really testing here today is our new installers. We have created these installers so that when you download any Jointed Rail content the dependencies will also be installed with it. Gone are the days of buying an engine and then going to our store to search for any dependencies that you may need. Simply download and run the .exe and the installer should install everything for you without the need to touch or open CMP.

ANY AND ALL BUGS TO REPORT WITH THE INSTALLER ONLY: Please send us an email to sean@jointedrail.com

Sean is our new full time programmer and will be working with us in the office on a day to day basis, we hope to be able to deliver some fantastic stuff with this ever expanding team.

Thanks and most of all.... ENJOY!

Jointed Rail

Click to expand...

Here is my two cents on the matter: I like you guys, I like your content, and I trust you. However, and I'm sure that there are a lot of other people with me on this one, I don't like the idea of .exe's to install content when the .cdp's do just fine. I thought the .cdp's were made as a replacement for the old .exe installers like you find on Trainzluvr and other really old sites. I have downloaded plenty of content (from you guys included) that install locomotives, engine spec's, bogeys, coronas and all, all from a single cdp. I've never really understood why the dependencies have to be downloaded separately, instead of being bundled with the locomotive.

a) We don't include the dependencies to keep the file sizes small, so if you already have one set of gondolas, you don't need a big file to download another gondola because they use the same dependencies.

Makes sense, but now:

b) The .exe includes all of the dependencies, so they can't be made smaller anymore, so how would this be any different than a .cdp?

I'm just throwing it out there. Like I said, I love you guys and your content. If this is a DRM thing, I fully support you guys protecting your content, and it is perfectly understandable. It just touches a nerve if this is touted as a "convenience feature" when the old way already is just as convenient. If it is not a DRM issue, I don't understand the point of fixing something that isn't broken.

Not saying that this will keep me away from your stuff or anything...... I'm just saying that it gives me a funny feeling. Then again, I'm one of those "black helicopters" kind of people.....

After my download was done my Norton 360 v5.0 tried to remove the file saying it was a unknown file less than a week old and could harm my computer. I trust you guys and told my Norton this was a trusted file (I'm not sure how many people know how to do this). I tried to install the file and it told me my trainz build was out of date. I had to update my trainz build from 48249 to 49922. After I updated my trainz build the installer worked just fine. I found the 52ft gondola and ACF 3 bay hopper but I forgot to look for the bethgon (forgot what I was installing). Now its time to go play.

Jeff

Norton is known for that issue as it has mucked up downloads of my applications as well.

Shane

Hi Scott!

We certainly appreciate the feedback. The installer will be a small part DRM, but mainly to ease the ability to update and install the content correctly. This is a beta version so all of the intended features are not there quite yet. In the end this will solve the issue of the customer having to hunt down dependencies on our site. Some of them are version specific depending on what it's using. I'm sure the other guys will chime in on the other details.

THanks

Mike

While I'm not a Club Car member I assume that these installers would be applied to all payware. I'm not against them as I trust JR. My concern is that if it is for DRM reasons, unless some permissions were set in the config that wouldn't allow JR assets to be saved to a cdp, a determined enough person could still distribute it as a cdp that they created(containing JR content). Meaning that they could bypass the installer by creating a cdp for the asset after its installed. Also I find that if you go to download a cdp(or other type) and it says "xxxxx.cdp.exe" that's a good indication of malware whereas an exe installer doesn't have that extra safety in the occurence of a cyber attack or hackers. Whatever way you guys decide to go I'll support you the best I can. I just thought I'd express a couple concerns I saw.

Micah

Google chrome didn't like the exe either

opus722 said:

Would it be hard to add a log-in function linked to a JR account in the installer as some form of DRM to prevent people from handing out files? I don't know how big of a problem that is for you guys, but it seems like anything you could do to prevent it would be a good thing. I don't think it would be that much of a hassle on the on the consumer end.

edit: Gah, it says my build number isn't right. Are these not compatible with TS2010 or is it just because I bought it through Steam? I've been looking for an excuse to buy TS2012.

Click to expand...

What is your current build number? The installer will only work with builds that all JR content is compatible with including 2010. If you can update your build it should fix the issue but if it is up to date then its something that needs to be fixed on my end.

Sean

slabay said:

Here is my two cents on the matter: I like you guys, I like your content, and I trust you. However, and I'm sure that there are a lot of other people with me on this one, I don't like the idea of .exe's to install content when the .cdp's do just fine. I thought the .cdp's were made as a replacement for the old .exe installers like you find on Trainzluvr and other really old sites. I have downloaded plenty of content (from you guys included) that install locomotives, engine spec's, bogeys, coronas and all, all from a single cdp. I've never really understood why the dependencies have to be downloaded separately, instead of being bundled with the locomotive.

Click to expand...

For me, it was easier to update the dependencies like trucks or sounds or script libraries without having to re-issue a cdp to potentially 1000s of buyers, so that is why JR left it up to the user to get these files.

slabay said:

a) We don't include the dependencies to keep the file sizes small, so if you already have one set of gondolas, you don't need a big file to download another gondola because they use the same dependencies.

Makes sense, but now:

b) The .exe includes all of the dependencies, so they can't be made smaller anymore, so how would this be any different than a .cdp?

I'm just throwing it out there. Like I said, I love you guys and your content. If this is a DRM thing, I fully support you guys protecting your content, and it is perfectly understandable. It just touches a nerve if this is touted as a "convenience feature" when the old way already is just as convenient. If it is not a DRM issue, I don't understand the point of fixing something that isn't broken.

Not saying that this will keep me away from your stuff or anything...... I'm just saying that it gives me a funny feeling. Then again, I'm one of those "black helicopters" kind of people.....

Click to expand...

Citing what i said above, now if i want to provide an update to payware say for a major change and want the customer to have access to a patch, the installer can determine whether the customer has already purchased said payware and install the correct files to update it.

Another important issue this takes care of is the amount of emails we get where a customer has downloaded at least 3 links, installed them into CMP (by double-clicking) and tried to run the game to find the items are not there. This is because they were not installed and committed properly and is a relatively simple fix, but it still clogs our support line with the question. The installer will ensure that all items that were intended to come with said product will be installed AND committed leaving none of that up to the user. IT is also my intention that the installer will be able to download anything required from the DLS if the user so chooses to do so at runtime. Finally, the installer also allows install into multiple supported copies of TRS on the same machine, where as you might have a little trouble doing that with a single cdp.

So the beta files that were included may not have actually needed an installer and could have been a single cdp (which they are) but the test was handling this with the installer instead of the user interacting with CMP.

Installation went fine with a warning from Symantec Endpoint Protection that only 2 other users have used this installer, something that I have never seen before, so I guess Symantec is certifying your installer with a Certificate of Authentication. After the install Over 900 assets became faulty, this was a false positive as when I right clicked on the error asset, it showed non-faulty.

John

spkelly86 said:

What is your current build number? The installer will only work with builds that all JR content is compatible with including 2010. If you can update your build it should fix the issue but if it is up to date then its something that needs to be fixed on my end.

Sean

Click to expand...

I was reading somewhere that there was not an update out for the steam download yet so he will not be able to update his build.

Jeff

colwell27 said:

I was reading somewhere that there was not an update out for the steam download yet so he will not be able to update his build.

Jeff

Click to expand...

This is true Steam adds its own stuff to patches to make it compatible with there system. Which means most patches for steam games are extremely long after everyone else get patched.

norfolksouthern37 said:

For me, it was easier to update the dependencies like trucks or sounds or script libraries without having to re-issue a cdp to potentially 1000s of buyers, so that is why JR left it up to the user to get these files.

Click to expand...

It was nice that it was almost cafeteria-style that you get a little CDP with the bogies and a little CDP with the car script libraries, since the cars or locos were such big files (the price of detail!), and the old way could at least shave a little bit off of these files. I also liked the fact that the downloads could be used independently too. I'll admit that I've referenced your trucks on stuff that I've reskinned, and with "Uses NorfolkSouthern37's S-2 bogeys- get them at www.jointedrail.com" in the description, I still get the emails about missing dependencies. Very frustrating!! (I've since found that you have some available on the DLS)

norfolksouthern37 said:

Citing what i said above, now if i want to provide an update to payware say for a major change and want the customer to have access to a patch, the installer can determine whether the customer has already purchased said payware and install the correct files to update it.

Another important issue this takes care of is the amount of emails we get where a customer has downloaded at least 3 links, installed them into CMP (by double-clicking) and tried to run the game to find the items are not there. This is because they were not installed and committed properly and is a relatively simple fix, but it still clogs our support line with the question. The installer will ensure that all items that were intended to come with said product will be installed AND committed leaving none of that up to the user. IT is also my intention that the installer will be able to download anything required from the DLS if the user so chooses to do so at runtime. Finally, the installer also allows install into multiple supported copies of TRS on the same machine, where as you might have a little trouble doing that with a single cdp.

So the beta files that were included may not have actually needed an installer and could have been a single cdp (which they are) but the test was handling this with the installer instead of the user interacting with CMP.

Click to expand...

I can understand your reasoning.... It is very frustrating to have to provide the same support over and over for people who don't follow directions, don't follow behind in an install and make sure that the assets aren't still "open for edit" (not your fault or theirs- I'm not sure why CMP commits some assets and not others), or tries to install them in TS1849'er or whatever other relic version of Trainz they have clanking around because they haven't upgraded in the past century.

Like I said.... I just am leery of .exe's, quite possibly because I am a Mac person who only uses Windows for Trainz, and I've heard so much about the Windows machines being so prone to viruses, mal-ware, and whatever carried by exe's in the Windows world. By the way, what about the Mac people?? They can't get stuff from .exe's.

Either way, I'll still be buying!

slabay said:

Like I said.... I just am leery of .exe's, quite possibly because I am a Mac person who only uses Windows for Trainz, and I've heard so much about the Windows machines being so prone to viruses, mal-ware, and whatever carried by exe's in the Windows world. By the way, what about the Mac people?? They can't get stuff from .exe's.

Either way, I'll still be buying!

Click to expand...

creating .exes with with virus / mal-ware is counter productive to our business model so that won't be an issue.

norfolksouthern37 said:

So the beta files that were included may not have actually needed an installer and could have been a single cdp (which they are) but the test was handling this with the installer instead of the user interacting with CMP.

Click to expand...

Mind if I ask some clarification?

1. Will this ultimately turn into a product activation-style DRM scheme? Exactly what does JR mean by saying this will incorporate "small part DRM"? If so, you can count me as an ex-JR customer right now, but I'd appreciate answers to the rest.

2. I run Trainz on a non-networked machine. Will the new content delivery method still work?

3. Does this new installer run once or is it installed as a service or resident program?

4. Does this new installer install some kind of validation code in Trainz itself, similar to WoT's Gatekeeper?

5. Do we have the option of disabling the search for any dependencies? I already have what is required installed.

6. Can we still install to multiple installations of Trainz that we own? Will the installer work with installations that are copied i.e. don't have the proper Windows registry entries? (I have 3 TS2010 installations, 2 TS12 and two TS12 Beta's on two different computers. Only the betas are "official" since they were the last installed.)

7. What else does the installer do?

I'd appreciate any clarification; I'm ready to install on my "guinea pig" machine.

colwell27 said:

I was reading somewhere that there was not an update out for the steam download yet so he will not be able to update his build.

Jeff

Click to expand...

We pulled our compatible build numbers from here http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php5/Trainz_build_versions
There is no 2010 steam version on there, so as long as the version is compatible with JR scripts it can be added to the installer. But I would still need to see the build number

My Norton keeps aborting the download due to a Threat.

Guess what, going based on what slabay just posted: I'm a Mac user and being cut out of new content now, and I paid for Club Car to get better content for my installation. I hate how N3V Games doesn't offer a cdp for their DLC since then I'd be able to use it with ease. You guys are about to loose a very loyal customer here if you go this route. And I won't be feeling that great if I can't take advantage of my Club Car membership in the future also, just for being a Mac user. (I ditched Windows long ago since I wanted quality, and have choice)

RRSignal said:

Mind if I ask some clarification?

1. Will this ultimately turn into a product activation-style DRM scheme? Exactly what does JR mean by saying this will incorporate "small part DRM"?

2. I run Trainz on a non-networked machine. Will the new content delivery method still work?

3. Does this new installer run once or is it installed as a service or resident program?

4. Does this new installer install some kind of validation code in Trainz itself, similar to WoT?

5. Do we have the option of disabling the search for any dependencies? I already have what is required installed.

6. What else does the installer do?

Click to expand...

1. Product activation is defiantly in the future for it. Right now our goal is simplicity for the general user. Right now it will verify our products are already installed for updating purposes.

2. As of now the .exe does not require a networked machine.

3. After the installer runs you can delete the .exe file and all the files should be in your content manager and fully committed.

4. No

5. As of now the installers will include all dependencies to simplify installation. If the dependency is already installed the installer will simply commit it there should not be any duplicate files.

6. Installs, commits, makes sure Trainz version is compatible with the JR coding, verifies content for updates to any models

We may add more features to it in the future.

Sean