"Can Steam Trains Get Clean Energy on Track?" What do you think?

Although I can see this maybe working for stationary boilers, Steam trains are not able to be competitive with a diesel-electric loco. The big reason is that steam locos need a lot of maintenance. Could this work for the tourist trains?
Maybe, maybe not. It would depend on the cost of the biofuel and what would need to be done to be used in said loco.

Kenny
 
I kinda like this, and the idea of one day being able to hear the faint whistle of a far off steam locomotive as it works hard to pull a main line freight. But there are so many factors that go against that ever happening. First off is the cost to run a steam locomotive, and I don't just mean fuel costs. Steam locomotive aren't just some machine you can beat and abuse like a diesel. They are a like a living creature that needs all most constraint attention. They take hours to prep and tons of elbow grease to keep running. But they do have one advantage over a diesel and that is shear power. Most steam locomotives can out pull a diesel of the same number of axles.

For example, Tuscola and Saginaw Bay RR would use 3 GP35's to pull about 35 cars out of Durand MI. Pere Marquette 1225, a 2-8-4 Berk pulled that 35 cars, plus 8 of its own cars, plus an additional 15 cars and one caboose out of Durand no problem. Its a 2.something% grade north out of Durand yard. But at the same time the crew of 1225 had to show up at 3am to get her fired and ready to leave the yard by 11pm. Where as the normal crew with the GP35s would show up around 6 and go right out on to the road.

Then there are the railroads them selves. Ever notice that when there is a steam excursion there is all ways a diesel with the locomotive? (Some places you wont see that, such as Strasbourg, MSRI, and a few other tourist railroads.) It not that the steam loco can pull the train, its that railroads way of preventing the train from blocking the main line should any thing happen to the steam loco. (Except one case with SP4449 where the diesel was mean to help, crapped out, and 4449 had to lug the whole train up a mountain at 12mph. But more on that latter. (Good story to hear some time though.))

But still, its a good idea and I support it, I just dont see this as the rebirth of steam as a major player in main line power.
 
Oh yeah, that's a great idea.

If biofuel isn't enough let's divert even more farmland use away from food production. That will do more wonders for the price of food.

I'm sure biocoal will be expensive to produce just like biofuel, so it too will need to be subsidized with taxes. Everybody likes to pay more taxes.

Children today will get to grow up paying for all of todays feel good schemes.
 
What about water? Water is the necessary component to any steam device, and not just any water. Clean fresh water that is really hard to find. That's the problem with steam. There is a whole lot of oil in the desert, but little water, and if you believe the crazy people, desert is increasing every day. So, yeah.

And some of the later 4-axle diesels applied their most power at high speed.
 
I hope it happens but, in my opinion, Inovation News Daily is flakey. Besides wouldn't a new steam engine be a steam turbine?
 
Those hacks turn that ATSF 4-6-4 into some modern-looking piece of trash ACE3000 look alike, they die :eek:

okay, in all seriousness, the idea sounds good, and I'm going to go with JIb228 and give it my cautious support/optimism: The idea sounds good in principle, but honestly I don't know how it would work in practice. It might be a good, cleaner substitute for coal-fired steamers on tourist roads, but honestly it's probably easier to just adapt the existing, entrenched technology (Diesels) to new emmisions standards.
 
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Cool stuff !
There are currently combination locomotives that can be set up to run as a diesel or electric unit - How about a designing a locomotive that can be set up to use steam , biodiesel , and electricity . Solve the problem of multiple operation by remote control and you only need one crew. Maintenace will be minimum with roller bearings , automatic lubrication, utilise re-worked sea water for the modern boilers , modern wheelsip , power and traction control and there we go ? :wave:
 
Those hacks turn that ATSF 4-6-4 into some modern-looking piece of trash ACE3000 look alike, they die :eek:

I don't think so really, it will most likely end up like the Red Devil concept. Keep it looking normal on the outside, but redesign it on the inside.
 
These pie in the sky energy sources cannot compete with good old fossil fuels. Educate yourself:

http://www.wou.edu/las/physci/GS361/Energy_From_Fossil_Fuels.htm


Sure, we can use less efficient fuels for anything to "save the world", but it's an answer to a non existent problem.

Euphod, would you agree with me if I say that 'global warming' is just a natural process that is happening on mother earth ? - as did the ice age and all the previous ages that have taken place .
I would think that we do help global warming along with polluting the atmospere, but we cannot stop nature happening ? Just interested to hear your view and I think it has bearing on this thread because , as you stated, 'a non-existing problem' and we should rather spend time and energy developing fossil fuels ?
 
As much as I can't wait to see a steamer go by my house. I feel like until we can fix the maintenance issues it wouldn't be able to come off the ground. The problem is nobody wants to invest time into making a steam engine efficent. Sadly the way were heading is the wrong direction. We keep wanting to waste money on these fuels which don't help and bio fuel is not worth we tried that before with cars and really was not sucessful in the end. What we really need is I think a totaly new type of engine not diesel,steam, electric nothing like that at all. I am thinking more water power turbine/engine. Here is the concept behind it the water is behind the engine in a tender like a steam locomotive and the engineer flips a switch with will release the door holding the water back, it will then rush down in to the turbine generating power to the trucks very simulator to a diesel creates power. The water will then be taken from a tube under the turbine and sucked by a vaccumn pump back into the tender to repeat the process. I think it would create a lot of power as you know water is very powerful source. the plus side is your wouldn't have to refuel it hardly ever and save companies alot of money.
 
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Here is the concept behind it the water is behind the engine in a tender like a steam locomotive and the engineer flips a switch with will release the door holding the water back, it will then rush down in to the turbine generating power to the trucks very simulator to a diesel creates power. The water will then be taken from a tube under the turbine and sucked by a vaccumn pump back into the tender to repeat the process. I think it would create a lot of power as you know water is very powerful source. the plus side is your wouldn't have to refuel it hardly ever and save companies alot of money.

Beattie;991743, are you suggesting that you have invented perpetual motion in your idea there. Because the laws of physics dictate that to create any motion you have to put in substantially more power than the power you wish to derive out. It would seem to me that it would be fine for water flowing down a pipe to drive a turbine which would create motion in the locomotive provided a sufficient flow and force of water is provided. However you would then need a source of power to get the water back above the height of the turbine. The laws of physics then would not allow the turbine to power both the locomotive for motion and at the same time provide power to pump the water backup to the required height for reuse. It's just not possible.

There is only one major source of power that drives railways all over the world. That power is economics. A good balance sheets is the fuel that will always run any railway on an indefinite basis. Some railways may be partly subsidised by regular government grants others derive their entire existence from subsidies, but inevitably in difficult times that economic fuel can be turned off and the railway suffers.

Therefore as with all business low cost is the most critical factor in ensuring the long-term existence of that business. When it comes to fuel cost for railways at the present time there is overhead or third rail electric power. However even more cost-effective is diesel. The locomotives are the most cost-effective to build, run, maintain and the one person who drives it can at the end of the their shift turn off the engine and walk away. Other than straight forward standard maintenance nothing else is required.

Bill
 
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The vacuum pump will have to be powered by a generator. However if the water is turning in the turbine it can use that power to charge the generator to feed the pump As for what you say about water force well the concept is like how dams generate power only smaller scale sort of. It would be interesting if this ever did make it to prototype model.
 
Hi Beattie And Everybody
The vacuum pump will have to be powered by a generator. However if the water is turning in the turbine it can use that power to charge the generator to feed the pump As for what you say about water force well the concept is like how dams generate power only smaller scale sort of. It would be interesting if this ever did make it to prototype model.

Let's put it this way,yes there would be power from the turbine to generate electrical power for the vacuum pump. However, the power needed to pump the water back up to the reservoir would need to be equal to the power of the pressure generated by the flow of the water going down through the turbine. Where then would be the power to propel the locomotive forward that would have to come from a second source such as a diesel generator which would either have to power the vacuum pump or propel the locomotive forward. As stated in my original posting the law of physics dictates that the turbine could not do both.

Bill
 
I see, looks like I need to look at some more factors for this. hmm wonder what I can do to fix that and isolate the water from the turbine into the vacuum tube.
 
Beattie,
Not to burst your bubble, but you can never get more energy out of something with little input, and the water has to fall from a high source like a dam to spin the turbines at a fast speed to get anything out of them.

But hey with steam locomotives it burns DOMESTIC fuels, and the U.S. would not have to import coal, we have trillions of tons of coal. Unlike importing 20-30 million barrels of oil a day so we can put it in the air with our SUVs. If railroads still used steam locomotives we could cut around 3 million barrels of oil we needed to import.
 
Yea I think my water turbine idea couldn't work out at least for trains. I wonder if we compare geared locomotives,rod engines, and steam turbines what would in the long run be better for steam engines? I have always wonder about this.
 
I would like to see another steam turbine engine made to run. I always wonder how they sounded and acted.
 
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