Steam in the 21st Century

Strange, the coal industry says the USA has 250 years supply of coal, not 2500 years.

http://www.coalnews.net/facts.php

There is NO rail transport CEO who would spend the money to change back to using coal. The infrastructure needed and the cost to build this is prohibitive.

Also, the rail industry is NOT going to increase labor costs and benefit costs needed for steam loco's....they are there to make money for the stakeholders.

It is all nice and warm and fuzzy to think about steam loco's, but the reality is that it will never come back.

Regards,

Behold the problems.

Steam is wonderful, I'll admit that. But its not viable. To make it viable would create some problems.

1. Electricity and water don't mix. Sure you could waterproof it, but it would be somewhat expensive. And you couldn't waterproof everything without some compatibly problems.

2. This is not really major, but there would be a high startup cost. In this day and age, this is bad.

3.Stockholders and the non-train fan public think that an archaic Technology can't work in a modern day environment. That I find hard to believe but then again they are not us. And railroads only job is to make money and please the stockholders.

Now if I could, I would try to develop a new age Steam Loco. But I don't have a million dollars.

And who would build such a thing? Nobody. EMD,GE and everybody else, are firmly rooted in the belief that Diesel and Electric is the wave of the Future.

No,this is not because I like diesels.
I feel sad about the above facts.

But, this is not a perfect world.

mrreet said:

So you have proven your ability to copy and paste.

How do you plan on removing the pollutants from the burning and the fact that there will be 1000's of high pressure bombs roaming the country side.


Also regardless if a steam engine **could be equal or slightly better than a diesel how does this state meant remain true? " it takes a ton of more diesels to equals a breathing monster!"



** all of the charts posted of the theoretical steam engine were estimates.

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So do cars boats airplanes if it was so bad how come back then the worlds air was not bad hmm. Face the facts america is stupid not to do it. People just think old technology is not good enought to make it well there sadly. If it was so bad for our heath why we use it for 80 years hmm. Some countries are still building better steam there smart us were making mistakes again as usually .

No, GM is doing a wonderful job of saying otherwise.

NevadaNorthernFan901 said:

Beattie, I am empressed! If I get in to the steam business, I would like to take as a business partner! You are good at this stuff. Steam ended with 1950's tech. Now we can start it up again with 2010 tech to make it vastly superior over the diesel. Plus America as enough coal to last for 2,500 years at current comsumption rates and not exported out of the country, as compared with oil of only about 100 years worldwide.

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Thats my goal is to build a modern steam engine and prove that steam has a place here. I mean look we still use coal plants if there so bad why we still use them? The goverment likes to make up crazy facts from thin air sad isn't

aardvark1 said:

Strange, the coal industry says the USA has 250 years supply of coal, not 2500 years.

http://www.coalnews.net/facts.php

There is NO rail transport CEO who would spend the money to change back to using coal. The infrastructure needed and the cost to build this is prohibitive.

Also, the rail industry is NOT going to increase labor costs and benefit costs needed for steam loco's....they are there to make money for the stakeholders.

It is all nice and warm and fuzzy to think about steam loco's, but the reality is that it will never come back.

Regards,

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That was a typo on my part, besides we export a good chunk of that coal that we could conserve and for our uses. Don't you think it is time to stop getting screwd by the world?

tycoonk4 said:

No, GM is doing a wonderful job of saying otherwise.

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They could pay the government there taxes!

Beattie said:

Thats my goal is to build a modern steam engine and prove that steam has a place here. I mean look we still use coal plants if there so bad why we still use them? The goverment likes to make up crazy facts from thin air sad isn't

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I'll go in with you, when I make my millions. I am actually planning to start my own company soon in the next few years. Still some bumps to sort thru.

How many people here have actually worked on the steam locomotive? How many people have had any experience firing them or engineering, or working on them in the shop?

I know a few people here have (although I can't say I've even pulled a throttle before). Steam is a lot more work then diesel is. I work on both at the loop. And just to do the daily trains, the average amount of work we have to do on the diesel involves starting it, checking off our checklist of things to look at, getting fuel, and going down the mountain.

Steam is different, just to get going in the morning takes about 1 hour just to start the fire and get the engine warmed up, service the journal boxes, service the various lubricators (mechanical and hydrostatic) check the air cups on the compressor, check the injectors, service the various rod and valve bearings, service the rod grease, the soft axle grease. you have to fill up with fuel and water. check the injectors. Yes, I am leaving a lot out, its hard to list everything (I do it all by memory honestly)

and then in the shop, its a lot of work to keep the engine running. Tube work, boiler washes, inspections. Even minor repairs on a steam engine take a lot of skilled labor, and a lot of time. Its hard, dirty, greasy, grimy, sooty work. Everything is heavy, almost nothing can be picked up locally, you have to special order it.

The problem with steam today not that modern technology is more powerful. Its more cost effective. A diesel engine in a locomotive is basically the same concept as a diesel in a truck. A mechanic can go from one to the other easily, yes, locomotives are bigger though. You can't go from working at a steam powerplant, or even a steam power ship on the great lakes and run a steam locomotive. Its different, very very different.

A lot of the skills needed to maintain steam locomotives have been largely lost, with a few people that carry on the tradition. The parts are not manufactured anymore. and big parts that may some day have to be replaced, like say a frame, or a boiler, are very expensive and hard to get. And the facilities to maintain these beast, are gone. The infrastructure to keep these engines moving on the road are also gone, coaling towers, water tanks, oil tanks, there all gone. You have to rebuild from scratch, and its expensive

NevadaNorthernFan901 said:

I'll go in with you, when I make my millions. I am actually planning to start my own company soon in the next few years. Still some bumps to sort thru.

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Alright Sure steam costs a lot but the tourist that want to ride it, will pay for itself in no time. Building the ultimate machine I love it. I would love to see your railroad the first ever railroad in over 50years to build steam instead of diesel thats history right there folks.

NevadaNorthernFan901 said:

That was a typo on my part, besides we export a good chunk of that coal that we could conserve and for our uses. Don't you think it is time to stop getting screwd by the world?

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The coal miners and companies DO NOT make money conserving.

The effects on the miners would be devestating.... lost jobs, homes, etc. The industries that support the coal industry will also lose jobs.

Hopefully, you will find out how the real world works, not just some immature whim wishing for steam loco's.

Klinger........ I agree with you. Sadly, most of what you said will not be understood.

Regards,

You people don't understand the word Modern steam it will reduce the maintenance that was needed for back then it will require less maintenance and will be better. But sense you people are diesel lovers you will not understand what I am putting out here as you have shown. I have one more thing old technology has came back before because it was modernize. I am wasting my time with people who don't want to modernize steam here.

Then design a steam locomotive that has electrical controls to make driving it easier than a diesel, has an electric fire starter to start the fire automatically, burns oil or some other liquid fuel so that the poor fireman does not have to work his butt off keeping the thing running (unless you can design a way to automatically keep the firebox full of coal as needed), automatically supplies water from the water tank as needed, is easy to maintain, and that is a lot more environmentally friendly than chuffing out very, very big smoke clouds, and then tell me what its advantages are versus diesel locomotives.

Klinger's post is great and echoes what I was already thinking, that a steam locomotive is harder on the crew to drive and keep running, etc., than a diesel. You must not forget that there are people in the cab of a locomotive that are working hard to get the job done. The easier it is to do that work, the better for the employees and the railway.

Regards.

Has anyone considered that a mid century conversion to coal will probably be accomplished by using the coal to produce liquid fuels like diesel. Why is it necessary to throw a lump of coal on a fire to make use of the hydrocarbons for energy. Wouldn't it be easier to extract the hydrocarbons before they are burned and then discard the rocks? Easier to move around and no need to return to the inherent inefficiencies of an external combustion engine. Heck, the technology has been around for ages. Ask the Germans. I read somewhere that during WWII they were even making artificial dairy products from coal.

Bernie

Beattie said:

Alright Sure steam costs a lot but the tourist that want to ride it, will pay for itself in no time. Building the ultimate machine I love it. I would love to see your railroad the first ever railroad in over 50years to build steam instead of diesel thats history right there folks.

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And I would love to see you design a steam locomotive, that would probably happen when hell freezes over.

Beattie said:

You people don't understand the word Modern steam it will reduce the maintenance that was needed for back then it will require less maintenance and will be better. But sense you people are diesel lovers you will not understand what I am putting out here as you have shown. I have one more thing old technology has came back before because it was modernize. I am wasting my time with people who don't want to modernize steam here.

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And you don't understand the facts,
1) It will cost too much money.
2) No big companies will want to build them.
3)It doesn't matter how you ease maintenance, you still won't be able to use the currant facilities.
4)It's all mechanical, a TON of stuff to go wrong.
5)Railroads don't want to pay their workers more and/or hire more people.
6)No way to automatically control more than one engine with one crew.
7)Need skilled workers.
8)More safety hazards.
9)Must re-train all RR workers.
10)More time to prepare for running.
If you still defy that steam will not make a comeback, then you must not have any common sense in you. We have tried to convince you with logic, but you still keep posting nonsense.
Would I like to have steam come back? Yes.
Will it ever happen? No.
Accept the truth, steam will not make a comeback, and get your facts strait and do not make any assumptions. I am not a diesel-lover.
Do I like diesels? Yes.
Do I like steam more? Yes.

I believe that is my 2 cents, if you don't like them, I don't care. It seems nobody can get you to understand the truth. If you go off saying crap to me, I won't care, this is the truth, if you don't believe it, then that is your problem, not mine.

I just going to stop talking before this starts into a argument.

Beattie said:

You people don't understand the word Modern steam it will reduce the maintenance that was needed for back then it will require less maintenance and will be better. But sense you people are diesel lovers you will not understand what I am putting out here as you have shown. I have one more thing old technology has came back before because it was modernize. I am wasting my time with people who don't want to modernize steam here.

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I work on steam locomotives every day. The boiler on the GLRR 12 is from 1988, its put on a 1928 frame.

I can promise you, you cannot do that much to reduce the maintenance of a steam locomotive. With all the modern innovations, a steam locomotive is a very maintenance intensive type of machine. Whenever you have that many moving parts IN THE OPEN, each one will require special attention.

Internal combustion engines are difference, its a closed system, its easier to move the oil around the lubricate the various moving parts, in some cases they can be bathed in oil.

Steam locomotive rods are different, they are in the open, and have to have fittings to provide lubrication

Even roller bearing rods did not totally solve that problem.

And you don't understand the facts,
1) It will cost too much money.

Way too much money, although actually if you compare a pre unit cost, a steam engine is about the same cost to build as a diesel, IF you can find someone to make the special parts like the boiler

2) No big companies will want to build them.

The trades, crafts, and machinery is gone

3)It doesn't matter how you ease maintenance, you still won't be able to use the currant facilities.

Nope, you need specialized shops

4)It's all mechanical, a TON of stuff to go wrong.

I've seen it happen every day, even a single leaky tube can cripple you

5)Railroads don't want to pay their workers more and/or hire more people.

Railroads are always looking to cut back on their workforce, find ways to get rid of employees

6)No way to automatically control more than one engine with one crew.

Not the way you think of it now, could it be done? I am sure it could, but it would be a complicated system, involving computers and servo's Direct linkage would be impossible

7)Need skilled workers.

And there are not many left

8)More safety hazards.

I disagree with this actually, any train is dangerous. If someone is not trained properly, it could spell disaster. Steam is the same way, training is key, but its no less safe then a diesel.

9)Must re-train all RR workers.

And train with only a handful of people that know the skills

10)More time to prepare for running.

and more time in the shops preforming routine maintenance. Because a steam locomotive is made up of so many parts, the amount of time it takes to work on them goes up

Lets just leave it to what you believe and I believe end of story. Nevada lets just talk pm ok before this thread goes into a bashing session as they always go to that very fast.

Retro00064 said:

T(unless you can design a way to automatically keep the firebox full of coal as needed), automatically supplies water from the water tank as needed, is easy to maintain, and that is a lot more environmentally friendly than chuffing out very, very big smoke clouds, and then tell me what its advantages are versus diesel locomotives.

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They did have a way to automatically feed coal into the fire box. most larger locos had a coal auger that fed coal into the fire box at all times. The firemen still needed to shovel coal to the few places that the auger could not reach. And had to fire off some steam jets in the fire box that would push coal from the auger to the front and other parts of the fire box.

They also had water pumps that would keep the water level at optimal level. The engineer or the firemen would adjust a valve that would pump in more or less water to keep the levels right.

Once a steam locomotive was hot enough, and running good, there would be little smoke and soot. Also, true story that I read. The Tuscola and Saginaw Bay RR used to use 3 GP35's to pull a 30 car train out of Durand. One day they brought down Pere Marquette 1225, a 2-8-4 Berk, in. She had her 5 support cars plus the other 30 cars. The berk didn't even notice there was a train behind her.


As for me, Id like to see more steam back up and running. Maybe not as main line freight, but maybe as specialty passenger trains. I dont me excursions that happen once in a grate while. But maybe restore a few steam locomotives and put them on a few permanent cross country trains. Example, replace what ever pulls the Califona Zepher with a steam locomotive. Keep the diesel and charge more to ride on the the steam Cali Zep. That way we still get to see steam run, and ride behind it, and it gets to make some money. Now in order for this to work right, passenger rail would need to take off again. If it where cheaper to ride the train from NYC to LA then fly a plane then yes it would work.