Am I a Traitor

I also downloaded the Bristol to Exeter route, and have to say that I'm very disappointed with it. There's no new Career Mode scenarios, for a start.

The attention to detail is non-existant - there's many, many areas that look nothing like their real-life counterparts, especially when you then go and set a scenario based in the 1970's with a 21st century layout. This is on top of Railworks existing problems of terrible sound effects, limited rolling stock and the extortionate fees to download new content.

I wouldn't mind the slight innacuracies so much if the fist paragraph they used to sell it to you was;

"This new route includes 85 all-new miles of track from Bristol Temple Meads to Exeter St Thomas, all painstakingly re-created brick by brick and mile by mile. Painstaking research of the route and its immediate environs ensure that this is one of the most realistic RailWorks expansions ever"

Erm, right - not sure that I want to see the less realistic ones!

I also bought Bristol - Exeter after reading the advertising spin. It is just another RailFail "route by numbers" creation.

The only half decent aspect of RW in my opinion. Are the IHH locos that i purchased and if we had the same quality in Trainz.

I would never look at RW again, i probably won't anyway. :hehe:

Mike.
 
The only half decent aspect of RW in my opinion. Are the IHH locos that i purchased and if we had the same quality in Trainz.

I would never look at RW again, i probably won't anyway. :hehe:

Mike.

That'll be Paul Godber, Mike, he creates a mean locomotive that's for sure, his steamers and his diesels have gone down a treat, and the fact that he comes from Mansfield, he'll always get my support......:hehe:

You'll be back on RW soon enough matey, you've got to play with your IHH locos on something......:p

Cheerz. Steve.
 
Recently acquired Railwork 2. I've never had any version of Railworks/Railsimulator before. I've just loaded it and looked at the first route. I must say that I'm quite disappointed in it, especially the scenery. Just doesn't look quite right. Alot of 2d trees - spines set back from the track. Looks terrible. Far too 2d'ish...

Trainz seems to have a far better 3d environment. Especially with things like speedtrees. (far less cardboard cut outs looking)... I know speedtrees is still a "work in progress" but they look 100 times better than some of the 2d tree-lines in Railworks 2.

One thing I was impressed with was the animated engineer & fireman that was in the steam loco. Made driving the steam engine in external mode look far more realistic. It's a shame that the scenery lets the sim down so much.
Looking forward to the day we see more animated drivers, engineers, & firemen in Trainz loco's. (loco's without drivers/firemen, just don't look as real as loco's with)...
Would love to see someone come up with a simple solution to help loco creators add drivers - engineers - firemen to their existing loco's they have created, that don't as yet have them.
(Especially if they are animated)...

To save me some time, could someone that is familiar with all of Railworks 2 routes that come on the DVD, please point out the best Railworks 2 route. (in their HO). That way I can have a look at the best route next & see how it compares to Trainz.
If it's as bad as the first route I looked at, then I'll immediately know I've wasted my money. Hey, with summer coming on, if the rest of the routes are as crap as the first one, I can always use the DVD as my new frizzbie... :hehe:
Cheers, Mac...
 
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Hi Everybody.
Apologies for going missing on the forum for a couple of days but I had an unexpected journey up to London yesterday and thereforeI was on the 6:30 AM Weston-Super-Mare to Paddington I had posted about a few days earlier returning in the evening rush-hour which made it a very long day.

On that I would have to say that at the price of nearly £170 and due to rise again in January the only way the average person is going to be able to afford to travel anywhere in Britain by rail in the future is on a rail simulator. Thankfully my trip will eventually be paid for by someone else.

As the opening poster on this thread which I started as a bit of of a joke I still cannot believe that new postings are being made. Having said that, in answer to the debate on the qualities of Trainz vs Railworks my feelings are these.

It has often been stated by many on this forum that the majority of users view Trainz not as a game but a hobby. However, I believe that within all those who view rail simulation as a hobby there are two distinct groups.The first one would be those who view their hobby as lighthearted entertainment and who enjoy route creation and the general riding on and driving of consists without looking for too much prototypical authenticity in the routes they create or the Trains they drive or ride on. General enjoyment would be the main object of rail simulation for these users

The second group would be those that treat rail simulation as a far more serious hobby and look for the greatest level achievable of genuine realistic authenticity in all aspects of what ever simulator they are using or content they are creating. For them realism and authenticity is everything and the higher those two parameters are placed the greater the enjoyment they gain from the rail simulator.

I would place myself in the first group but this is no criticism of those who would view them selves in the second as achieving the highest levels of realism possible should also be the target of the simulator producers. However, having said that it has to be remembered that the producers of Railworks and Trainz have to create a commercial product which will produce a return for the company investors.

With that in mind any route produced can only have a limited level of authenticity if it is to be produced at a price that will sale enough to produce the above profit. Therefore the newly released Bristol to Exeter route criticized by some on this thread, cannot have the level of realism and authenticity they are looking for in a commercial market at this point in time. As I stated a significant landmark near Bedminster station namely the Victoria Park and the Victorian era Built school next to it is missing along with the old manor house and workers cottages so prominent near to Nailsea station, but in that I would not have expected the manor house and cottages to be there. However all the bridges, cuttings and embankments along the line are there so the route in my view achieved a higher level of realism than I expected.

I believe that most people posting on this forum realize that train simulators are a niche market and therefore sales volumes will always be limited by that fact. Therefore we all have to accept that the product producers can only provide to us standards up to the investment available.

Bill
 
Hello Mac,

Can you tell us which map it was that you looked at please ??
I must honestly admit that some routes are pretty ropey, but, there are some good ones around and it depends on whether it was a Payware one, or, a freebie that's been created, as the quality standard is different.
And I agree that some of the default trees are very 2D-ish, I've already got a bad name by stating that fact, my name is mud on their forum with some of my honest comments at present.....:hehe:
Unfortunately, as the game is still somewhat in its infancy, there is an acute shortage of creators who are willing to get involved with the game, for whatever reasons, so, until route and content builders start supplying assets, we're stuck with the very few folks we have to rely on all the time. There are virtually no Australian creators at all, and only one New Zealand website who generates stuff for the game, so, we have hardly any content whatsoever from down-under, not a great deal we can do about it at the moment, we can't force people to join the clan, they obviously don't want spend their spare time getting to know the intricacies of how to build stuff in 3DS Max, Blender, Sketchup, etc, etc.

Their are some excellent creators from China who have offered us some magnificent steam, diesel and electric locomotives with appropriate rolling stock, and there is an authentic route being created at the moment, and it's all freely available, so, if you're into Chinese railways, then I would recommend having a look at what they've done so far for the community.

Here's a download website for their content, you can see for yourself the standard of what they offer, they're quite big sizes, minimum of 50-75 mb for each loco, that's due to the quality of the build, and there's more assets in the UKTS library. http://tsnz.galacticshare.com/china.html

Cheerz. Steve.
 
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Hi Steve and Everybody.
You are perfectly right Steve when you state that there is a shortage of content creators for Trainz and Railworks. There is obviously also a trend towards payware creation especially where Railworks is concerned.

As we all know it can take many months of work to create a moderately sized route even to a reasonable standard of realism (18 months in my case). I also believe that there is a reluctance to place routes and other content onto the DLS by creators because of the possible criticism it may incur from some quarters if it is not to the standards they expect.

Therefore route creation and general content is falling more and more to commercial producers where as stated they will create to the standards that the budget for the project will allow. The foregoing will certainly not be up to what many on the Railworks and Trainz forums want and expect.

But that's business
Bill
 
That'll be Paul Godber, Mike, he creates a mean locomotive that's for sure, his steamers and his diesels have gone down a treat, and the fact that he comes from Mansfield, he'll always get my support......:hehe:

You'll be back on RW soon enough matey, you've got to play with your IHH locos on something......:p

Cheerz. Steve.

Not me guv, the core program is going nowhere Steve. :hehe:

Toy Town HUD, AI still as it was when RS was originally released.

As i say mate, Paul's locos are the only decent thing about the game, in my opinion of course. ;)

No wonder it carries a 3+ sticker. :D

Take it easy boyo.

Mike.
 
Hi Mike,

Yep, we all cannot understand why RS won't upgrade a lot of the problems that existed from day one, the core programme, AI, loco physics, etc, etc, our requests have fallen on deaf ears, I'm afraid. The new HUD, is mainly for all the kids on Facebook and Twitter who screamed for it, that hasn't gone down too well with many of the more maturer players, either. Everything is geared towards big business and doing things for the kids brings in more money, so, a lot of us veterans who wanted a decent game with more realistic features don't get it, the only top quality free stuff is done by the foreigners, but, half the Brit kids don't like German, Chinese or American content, so, what do us veterans do.......

If I had the money I'd start my own damn railway simulator just for adults and moaning, spoilt brat little kids will be barred from joining.....:hehe:

Cheerz. Steve. Take care matey.
 
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Hi Mike,

Yep, we all cannot understand why RS won't upgrade a lot of the problems that existed from day one, the core programme, AI, loco physics, etc, etc, our requests have fallen on deaf ears, I'm afraid.

...

Oh, it's quite easy to understand, let me explain it...

Until a few weeks ago, they simply didn't have the programmer staff to do so. RSC/RSDL is primarily a bunch of artists that had experience making payware for RailSimulator.

When they took control of the source code from EA/Kuju via Fund4Gamers they probably thought they could just ride along on the tailcoats and not actually have to improve the product, but instead use it to solidify their presence as a producer of payware. Somewhere they might have had long term goals to actually improve some aspects that would make it 'even better for payware'.

This situation is borne out by the fact that Derek has stated that Adam has been bothering them about core functionality that others clearly want (Super Elevation, better lighting, etc) for 2 years, and as far as I can tell, prior to the recent hirings, Adam was the only one of them that actually touched the source code, and that was likely resented by the others as it took him away from production of payware assets. The fact that the new UI and the career system have been in development for pretty much 2 years confirms this, IMO.

Now, they've hired people over the last few weeks, some of whom are proper dedicated programmers, and it MIGHT be that we'll see some changes once that investment has paid off (as a professional (ex) programmer myself, I'll point out that any such improvement due to these hires is likely to take somewhere from 3-6 months minimum from hiring programmers - there is a learning curve for any code base, and a wind-up period where the programmers will require a longer-than-normal time to get to grips with how the whole thing fits together and can be improved).

However, the bottom line is that RSC is *still* a payware asset production studio at their core, and Paul Jackson hasn't, IMO, shown any signs of having the vision required for actually improving the core product, so I wouldn't be running to the bookies to make any bet about them improving the core product measurably.

But at least they're now in a better position to actually try.
 
When they took control of the source code from EA/Kuju via Fund4Gamers they probably thought they could just ride along on the tailcoats and not actually have to improve the product, but instead use it to solidify their presence as a producer of payware. Somewhere they might have had long term goals to actually improve some aspects that would make it 'even better for payware'.

Hi Nikkia And Everybody.
I am sure Nikkia that everybody reading this will accept what you say as unfortunately what has happened, but it is derived from a system called "capitalism" and it is unfortunately the system that all Western countries run on. It means that no company will employee any person other than they absolutely have to. If you can gain a commercial advantage by buying other companies to gain their assets rather than develop your own, then that is what you do. If you think the above is rampant in the software industry you should try working in the road haulage industry where small long-standing companies are so often swallowed up by the big boys just to gain control of the contracts they have. The foregoing often leaves many long serving employees of these small companies suddenly unemployed after years of service that brought in the contracts that the multinational company suddenly want.

But there that's business
Bill:(
 
"Unfortunately, as the game is still somewhat in its infancy"

Original release October 2007, it's 3 years old.

"there is an acute shortage of creators who are willing to get involved with the game, for whatever reasons"

Actually it's chronic rather than acute, reasons are as stated above, core problems that will never get fixed.

http://forums.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?282911-Lost-All-Patience

That's the guy who made the one and only freeware US steam loco for RS/RW, there won't be any more of them from him unless they fix the AI traffic - and regardless of how many new programmers they hire (and they claim they've had programmers working on it all along) they're not going to fix the AI because they don't consider it broken - it does what they want it to do, animated background scenery.

The "two types" observation has been made before, the majority are the casual "have a run and explore" types, don't care about the core problems. The people who want realistic operations are a tiny minority of any simulator, but the overwhelming majority of that minority are the freeware content creators - if the game don't have what they want, the casual players don't get the freeware goodies. The formula is really simple, want more sales, you need more freeware creators making stuff, want more freeware creators you have to give the creators what they want. "if you're into Chinese railways" I'm not, but there you have it, RS/RW really wasn't designed for the US market.
 
Wholbr said "It has often been stated by many on this forum that the majority of users view Trainz not as a game but a hobby. However, I believe that within all those who view rail simulation as a hobby there are two distinct groups.The first one would be those who view their hobby as lighthearted entertainment and who enjoy route creation and the general riding on and driving of consists without looking for too much prototypical authenticity in the routes they create or the Trains they drive or ride on. General enjoyment would be the main object of rail simulation for these users.

Personally I don't regard Trainz as a game - "Far Cry" and "Call of Duty" are games. To me the appeal is the chance to try to to recreate something which you either saw fleetingly or never saw at all in real life. In my own case I am doing a sim of the Malton & Driffield Railway which closed in 1958 before I was born. I am sharing it with the Yorkshire Wolds Railway who plan to reopen part of the line starting next year.Photos of the line are few and far between but with Trainz it is possible to get a feeling what it was like to sit on a hill and watch trains pass by in the valley below, or stand at a level crossing as the goods went by. It's also a practical tool as I have been able to do them sims of what the proposed line "may" look like complete with car parks and so on.
A (non railway minded) pal says Trainz looks like a "cartoon" but when he does I simply talk Splines, FPS and GPU's to him until he shuts up and opts for a few pints.

http://www.yorkshirewoldsrailway.org.uk/
 
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Hi lewisner And Everybody
Personally I don't regard Trainz as a game - "Far Cry" "Call of Duty" are games. To me the appeal is the chance to try to to recreate something which you either saw fleetingly or never saw at all in real life. In my own case I am doing a sim of the Malton & Driffield Railway which closed in 1958 before I was born. I am sharing it with the Yorkshire Wolds Railway who plan to reopen part of the line starting next year.Photos of the line are few and far between but with Trainz it is possible to get a feeling what it was like to sit on a hill and watch trains pass by in the valley below, or stand at a level crossing as the goods went by. It's also a practical tool as I have been able to do them sims of what the proposed line "may" look like complete with car parks and so on.

Hi Lewisner And Everybody.
Once more lewisner you have been able to sum up far better what I was actually trying to say. To me the appeal of Trainz is exactly the same as your own. With my North Devon route I have been trying to re-create the branch lines as they were prior to much of their closure in the 1960s.

Anyone who looked at my 18 months of very enjoyable work would say that it was not authentically correct to how the routes where laid out with regard to topography or even somewhat geographically. However, to me that is not the most important thing. The greatest imperative to me in creating the route is to capture the atmosphere and scenery of the lines as they were in the 60s. Yes getting the stations and surrounding buildings somewhat correct is imperative but also using my own imagination and little creative talent I have to bring about North Devon as it was at that time has with me precedents over everything else.

The above is what has created all the enjoyment I have gained from Trainz over the last 18 months in making the route and from riding along it as a passenger with my feet up on the desk and my evening glass of wine. That is why I put myself in the first group of Trainz users in my earlier posting, as I am in it for enjoyment rather than authenticity. However, I would never dare put my creation on the DLS as without doubt it would bring the world down around my ears from those who derive their enjoyment of Trainz from realism and authenticity.

Having said the above I very much respect their views in pushing for evermore realism. However, it has to be remembered that outside of freeware which appears to be reducing rapidly there is only commercial content both in the simulator itself and content creation for it. Therefore the level of authenticity and realism they will create will be governed by the return on investment they expect to get from the budget they put in.

But again that's business
Bill
 
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Hello Mac, Can you tell us which map it was that you looked at please ?? Cheerz. Steve.

Gidday Steve,
Thankyou for your reply. The Railworks 2 map was; Bath Green Park to Templecombe. Session was; Bruised & Battered, driving the 7F Special. Could you please point out the best route & session in Railworks 2.
Thankyou also for the link to the Chinese Railworks loco's.
Cheers, Mac...
 
Hello Mac,

The Bath to Templecombe route is one of the default layouts that came with the game, in essence, and in all honesty, all of the default routes were a bit of a hotchpotch utilising the default crappy trees and other scenic items that were only available when the game was originally released. However, now that various other scenery content has been created in the last 18 months, or, so, I've been able to adorn all of my default routes to bring them up to a higher standard by my own personal touches. The 6 best default routes in my opinion were York to Newcastle, London Paddington to Oxford and the Barstow to San Bernardino California, routes, along with the 2 German layouts Hagen - Siegen and Seebergbahn, as I love European trains. These were the longest layouts offering both freight and passenger train combinations, and you can use steam as well as diesel locomotives. On the German routes you can also utilise the newer German and Spanish steam locomotives, and of course the various electric locomotives and rolling stock now produced. The Castle Rock route was set in Denver, Colorado, this has also now been used by the Spanish and Chinese modellers who have released their own versions of this small route with Spanish and Chinese scenic items to match. We have a few Trainzy friends that have created content for the game, The Spanish on http://www.trensim.com/, Gor, also from Spain who has created a fantastic narrow guage route, some of the Russians, Iceman from Germany http://rail-sim.de/railsimnew/index.php/downloads and Josef Korecs from the Czech Republic, along with a few others, we now have a lot more trees, bushes, houses, apartment blocks, warehouses and factories, railway buildings, cars and other road vehicles, signals, level crossing structures, animated people for our station platforms, etc, etc, to place on our maps. Jointed Rail from America made some GP38-2 diesel locos that you can freely obtain from their site and there are now some reskinners who have jumped onto the bandwagon to offer us more variety from the various Railroad companies from the present as well as some "fallen flag" variants from companies that no longer operate. These are being generated on a fairly regular basis, and with the advent of a couple of other layouts, such as the Altenburg to Wildau, a true freeware route set in Germany by a Dutch creator called Siegfried A.Derks, who has made a lot of his own scenery assets for his layout, this obviously gives you more items to utilise on other routes as you see fit. His blogsite is here, he will be releasing an up to date version of his map soon that he continues to expand. http://sad-railworks.blogspot.com/
As with all 3rd party creators you have to visit various sites to obtain new content. It obviously depends on what you personally like to play with, for freebie American content then you can visit
http://railworksamerica.com/

My 2 personal favourite layouts are Burlington Northern Big Horn Sub Division and the Bay of Quinte, but, have a look at the others which are both small and extremely large and subsequently have a lot of freebie assets to go with them. Obviously the standard differs from creator to creator, only you can decide which are the best to play on, some of them have lots of scenarios for each route, others may have just put 1 or 2 in.

You can also have a look in the file library at http://www.trainsim.com/ for lots and lots of other freeware content.

For British content you need to go into the UKTS library, it's the equivalent of the DLS http://uktrainsim.com//index2.php
On here are many routes for both steam and diesel, our lovely friend Big Vern Moorhouse has a couple of layouts, Heartbeat Moor (North Yorkshire Moors Railway) and the Sulitjelma Railway, which are extremely suitable for steam, coupled along with some other routes, The Port Road version 3, Leafy Suburbs version 2, the Crouch Valley Branchline, Aln Valley Railway version 1, Blyth & Tyne and South Devon Banks version 12, these are some of my personal favourites, you might not like them, but, until you view them only you can decide.
I almost forgot to say, but, a lot of freeware routes use Payware routes as a template (the Isle of Wight add-on), is an example, you might see this layout mentioned in the various "Read Me" documents enclosed with each layout, this has narrow guage tracks and lots of scenic assets that creators have used on their own creations, and as such is recommended you obtain to get the full value of the freebie layouts that utilise it.

Unfortunately, there does seem to be more Payware stuff around then freeware, but, if you don't obtain this then you won't be able to play with the newer routes as many of the creators have utilised the newer tracks, overhead electric gantries, etc, etc, on their creations. But, there is some freeware about it just needs a bit of time to explore around and see what you might think is suitable.

Give us a shout if you require anything else, I can give anyone a shopping list of websites to visit for both free stuff and Payware material, it all depends on what you all like to play with.

Cheerz. Steve. :wave:
 
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Heartbeat Moor (North Yorkshire Moors Railway) and the Sulitjelma Railway,

I actually produced a Sulitjelma for both Trainz and RW, though I must admit to preferring the Trainz version largely because the distant scenery looks better. Railworks has yet to achieve a passable distant mountain effect and if anything these look worse since RW2, something appears to have altered in the default weather files which make anything over 3km away look bleached out.

I fully agree with Bill (wholbr) regardless of whether you build in one sim or several, there is a little bit of magic when bringing something long gone back to life. That's why I produced the Sulitjelma, after reading an account of a journey over the line in an old HA Vallance book. Ditto my SMJ route for MSTS.

With regard to content creation, I think at least some of the problem is that many of us have been doing this for years thus even the most enthusiastically started projects sometimes wither and die. I certainly find the process much slower and painstaking than it used to be, maybe as a result of increasing age (50 next year!) or general slowdown in mental and creative ability.
 
Another good thing about Trainz is that you actually learn something about how rhe railway you are modelling actually worked.
When I modelled Sunderland station as it was in the 1960's I did my best to make the signalling as accurate as possible - I have the actual signalbox diagram in my collection so I numbered all the points and signals correctly. However when I tried to make a tain leave from platform 3 for Durham it simply wouldn't go. The reason was that the track layout didn't allow for it! I've had the diagram for over 20 years but looking at a diagram or photos doesn't help you UNDERSTAND how things worked.
Also of course in some ways Trainz is like a "skeleton" crossword puzzle - you have challenges of how to get things looking like they did in real life. So for example one signal is on the far side of the line for sighting reasons and I had to find out how to alter the Trackside Value to put it in the right place.
It all adds to the interest.
 
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~snip~ Railworks has yet to achieve a passable distant mountain effect and if anything these look worse since RW2, something appears to have altered in the default weather files which make anything over 3km away look bleached out. ~snip~

Hi Vern,

I’ve not tried RW or RW2 (yet), but I’ve found that distant landscapes can occasionally also looked 'bleached' out in Trainz.

On my system it's caused by use of any highly contrasting sky. It’s particularly noticeable with bright blue and dark grey skies, particularly if good weather fog is set at, or near, maximum.

Apologies if you've experimented already, but if not it might be worth trying a neutral misty light grey or pale blue sky – you might find it will tone down the landscape and make it look realistic. (The landcape colour doesn't actually change, but the altered contrast fools the brain into thinking that it has).

It would be interesting to know if it solves the problem.

Cheers
Casper
 
Rail Simulations - No Market Savvy

The CEO is from a gaming background. He is used to catering to teenagers who enjoy dismemberment or exploring female anatomy. He simply cannot understand that there is a strong possibility that his game (RW) is boring. As Sniper pointed out AI is "animated background" to him and quite sufficient as is. Big Mistake!

The RW (Jackson) CEO fails to understand the potential of proper AI. Right now dedicated train drivers are "driving" trains up and down routes all lined with repeating vegetation and common objects. Eventually some of that group will become bored and drift off to other entertainment venues. However, if AI was brought up to a reasonable standard the "veterans" would begin to really create non-boring routes that fully interact with other trains and commerce just as happens on real railroads. The challenges of driving a trian would increase dramatically and be so close to reality that the gamer then becomes immersed. An immersed gamer tends to buy goodies to extend that immersion. However, the self-appointed CEO only wants to milk the current audience with payware in an effort to keep his company afloat and recover some of his investment. Until Paul Jackson emerges from his gaming world "what you see is what you get" for the foreseeable future.:'(

Of course I could be wrong (glad to eat crow) and he has seen the light. However, his dim light-bulb has so far not met some customers expectations and they ain't buyin his addons..
 
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