TS2010 Session making competition - feedback

What do people think about this as a course of action? Would this tempt you to enter this time, whether you are completing a started but abandoned session, or starting a new one from scratch?

I think this time we have anything we need to make some decent sessions. When do we start? :)
 
I used to make a few sessions for my own routes in the style of scenarios and I remember they take a lot of testing. I also remember it took me quite a long time to get used to how it works, mostly figuring things out by trial and error.

I personally think (I might be wrong here) that most people don't really havea clue about sessions or how to set them up. Maybe there needs to be a more obvious guide or example on a session?

I enjoy making sessions, but I didn't even consider entering the competition because I just didn't think I could do it well enough to make it worth it, especially with the routes included.. I'd have used the ECML, but thats quite a long route to make anything decent for in a short time..
I'm still not sure about the layers... you can add triggers and trackmarks for sessions ina session layer right? So nearly anything is possible?.. this is something i'm not clear on because I only make sessions for my own routes.



Cheers
David

I'm relatively new to trainz and would have to agree with the above comments, I wouldn't mind entering but feel anything I'd be capable of producing right now wouldn't stand a chance.

Although I am sure many of the more seasoned guys will be able to point out loads of info on how its done I'd have to say I've struggled to find good tutorials and information on how to create content (routes, sessions, assets) of any kind for trainz.

What info I have found and tried I always end up being unable to find features they're referring to in apps like gmax and the process for taking it from gmax (or any other app) in to trainz (I realise that's not what was asked for in this competition but I feel it applies to session creation equally since I haven't got a clue about scripting, I couldn't tell you one single command yet and no idea where to find out.)
 
Session creation is a just a little bit easier than 3D modelling (and texturing ;)) .

You can start with the "Rule and Session Guide", which can be found here:

http://trainzresources.com/directory/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=899

The Guide includes some basic information about rule usage, as well as a pair of step-by-step descriptions of very simple sessions.
Unfortunately, there is not a "Driver Order Guide", but most of them are self-explanatory or include sufficient information in their readme texts or descriptions.

Then, clone some simple session (never open the original session) and open in Surveyor to see how the various rules and driver orders are used to manage train movement, to display player instructions, etc.

Finally, never mind to ask to your fellow Trainzers: I learned much more from the Trainz community than from the tutorials :)
 
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Before i start working on new session i need the answer on this.
In Announcement thread you said that map modifications are not permitted. Does it mean, that using session layer and make the changes for semaphores or set in additional MINs, isn't allowed.
 
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Session creation is a just a little bit easier than 3D modelling (and texturing ;)) .

You can start with the "Rule and Session Guide", which can be found here:

http://trainzresources.com/directory/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=899

The Guide includes some basic information about rule usage, as well as a pair of step-by-step descriptions of very simple sessions.
Unfortunately, there is not a "Driver Order Guide", but most of them are self-explanatory or include sufficient information in their readme texts or descriptions.

Then, clone some simple session (never open the original session) and open in Surveyor to see how the various rules and driver orders are used to manage train movement, to display player instructions, etc.

Finally, never mind to ask to your fellow Trainzers: I learned much more from the Trainz community than from the tutorials :)

Do you perhaps have a different location for the Rule and session guide? It can not be obtained from the mentioned location any more. Thanks in advance.
 
The Sessions & Rules Guide can be downloaded HERE

Though it was written for TRS2006, the basic concepts and most of its content are still fully valid in 2010.

@Windwalker & James Moody:

I understand (and approve :D ) cutting support for 2006 and previous versions, but this document is the only available documentation (as far as I know) about session making. Wouldn't be possible to make it available again?

While I was digging my HDs looking for the Session & Rules Guide, I found an ancient tutorial about sessions that was released for TRS2004 SP2. It also includes a demo "route", but I don't know if it works in 2010 (five minutes ago I didn't know I have this relic in my HD ;) ).

Happy sessions to everybody!!
 
:eek: I assume that adding trackmarks and triggers in the session layer is allowed: they are definitely built-in content... :)
 
In Announcement thread you said that map modifications are not permitted. Does it mean, that using session layer and make the changes for semaphores or set in additional MINs, isn't allowed.

Anything you do in the session itself is fine. The whole point of this competition is to build a session.

kind regards,

chris
 
I was one of those who had his fingers well and truly burnt with the previous TC competition. I spent fair bit of time reworking a QR route I had been making in TRS2006 called "Wakarla Junction". The TC and 2006 versions were uploaded after about 4 or 5 tries each, due to DLS malfunctions. After the competition date had gone by there was little or no response from Auran staff, even to say we have cancelled the competition. I decided to contact the Fair Trade Department in QLD about this matter. I was finally told that my entry had been disqualified, because 2 of the items I had used were not on the DLS. Actually one was a built in item and another had been changed to a kuid2 after the competition deadline. I was also told that there were not enough entries to warrant giving prizes or announcing winners. if any of this were true no one from Auran could ever be bothered to say that on the forum, just let it drag on. Since then I have registered TC3 and TS2010 under a new user name, and I would not enter any competition after this experience. Auran or NV3 has lost all credibility and mana on that score.
Cheers Will
 
Auran or NV3 has lost all credibility and mana on that score.

You are of course welcome to your opinion, and given the bad experience that you've had I doubt that you will change it. For everybody else it's probably worth me taking the time to point out that N3V is not Auran, and had little or nothing to do with Trainz during the period of the competition.

I'm not trying to defend what happened with Auran, but holding N3V morally accountable is perhaps a little unfair.

kind regards,

chris
 
Before i start working on new session i need the answer on this.
In Announcement thread you said that map modifications are not permitted. Does it mean, that using session layer and make the changes for semaphores or set in additional MINs, isn't allowed.

The session layers are fair game - feel free to do whatever you like in there, although please note that content added in this way does need to be TS2010 built-in content.

What you can't do is modify the map layer(s). The session, when downloaded, must work with an unmodified version of the route.

Would it be permitted to add triggers to the session layer?
:eek: I assume that adding trackmarks and triggers in the session layer is allowed: they are definitely built-in content... :)

Absolutely - placing trackmarks and triggers in a session layer is an expected part of building a session :)
 
You are of course welcome to your opinion, and given the bad experience that you've had I doubt that you will change it. For everybody else it's probably worth me taking the time to point out that N3V is not Auran, and had little or nothing to do with Trainz during the period of the competition.

I'm not trying to defend what happened with Auran, but holding N3V morally accountable is perhaps a little unfair.

kind regards,

chris

Unfortunately TS2010 needs some digesting. Quite a few assets need correcting and a fair amount of effort has been put into this and continues to be put into this. A number of creators have been put off by the changes and feel a little discouraged and confused by TS2010 as I think some of the comments in this thread have underlined.

N3V's priorities center around selling more copies, I think we've seen a substantial increase in the number of special offers etc. recently. I'm not certain every one in the community shares these same priorities. I am aware that overall the market for computer games hasn't grown as much as some companies might hope for.

Competitions seem trendy these days, I see many from different companies and organisations, but both the amount of effort involved to make an entry and the expertise needed are also fairly high. Add into the mixture memories from the Auran days and people need some reassurance that they aren't wasting their time. I think you've been doing that to some extent in this thread. I think the other message that has been floating around is the quality of work desired. It's one thing to spend my time getting things right to a level I'm comfortable with but quite another to be told what N3V wants is 27 levels of detail. Set the standard too high and its not fun any more it becomes to much like work.

I agree N3V isn't Auran, but I'm not quite certain what it is. The Trainzdev site was extremely useful for learning about TS2009/10 requirements and how to put them together.

One weakness is the Russian and eastern Europe side not being as well represented on the DLS as it could be. For example "V6E Mittelstadt Tram Route NOW ON DLS" great layout but try downloading it and see what a hunt you need to do to find the dependencies. Getting them on board should give a reasonable payback in providing content including sessions. How you do it I don't know.

I do suspect that this message is not politically correct and will disappear shortly from the forum but I think it is a valid analysis of what N3V needs to think about.

Cheerio John
 
I'm relatively new to trainz and would have to agree with the above comments, I wouldn't mind entering but feel anything I'd be capable of producing right now wouldn't stand a chance.

Don't be so sure about that. With the best part of 3 months available, I'm sure you could learn to use enough of the session rules to make a respectable session.

If you make sure your submission has:

* A set of HTML instructions that can be read from inside the session
* Some form of scoring
* A message that appears when the session is complete

Then you're well in the running.
If it basically works and can be played through to completion, you'll have a session that will pass the initial preselection process. After that, you'll be advised by the judges what needs to be improved to bring it up to standard.

Making HTML instructions isn't hard - look at the existing TS2010 sessions - they pretty much all have them. All you need to do is add one rule to the session and create one HTML asset with one or more pages in it.

Scoring is all done with the 'variable XXXXX' rules. Unfortunately a lot of the existing sessions don't have scoring, but the ECML session and one of the Downtown Traction sessions do. Have a look at these to see some ideas on how to arrange it.

For a 'driving from place to place' style scenario, progress (and thus score) may be measured by stopping at the required stations. You can make the session harder by also checking time. For an inventive approach, you may wish to try measuring knock-on delay on other AI trains - many real railways use this approach rather than just the absolute time difference.

For a switching/shunting style scenario, progress (and thus score) may be measured from industry or wagon cargo queues, and/or by the position of wagons. IIRC both of these techniques are used in the one scored Downtown Traction session.

(snip stuff about GMAX)
I feel it applies to session creation equally since I haven't got a clue about scripting, I couldn't tell you one single command yet and no idea where to find out.)
Session creation does not require any scripting. Creating rules does, but you can build a very respectable session with only the existing session rules.

Of course, if someone wants to make more session rules, that's fine - just make sure the rule is general purpose and reusable enough not to fall foul of the 'no black boxes' competition term, and make sure it's available on the download station.
 
Competitions seem trendy these days

I'm not sure that it's ever been any other way. Competitions can be great for everyone involved, but as we have seen in this thread we need to strike a balance between what is beneficial for one group and what is beneficial for another. 'Groups' here includes N3V, the content creators, and the non-creating players.


.. but both the amount of effort involved to make an entry and the expertise needed are also fairly high.

Moderately high, but at the same time not unreachably so for most people. We're not asking for a masterpiece. Just something where people have actually put some real thought into the gameplay.


I think the other message that has been floating around is the quality of work desired. It's one thing to spend my time getting things right to a level I'm comfortable with but quite another to be told what N3V wants is 27 levels of detail ... Set the standard too high and its not fun any more it becomes to much like work.

More than anything, we want a session which is fun to play. For the competition, we're specifically limiting the routes and content so visuals is a non-issue here. It really comes down to two things- your creativity, and your ability to turn your ideas into a working set of Rules.


Add into the mixture memories from the Auran days and people need some reassurance that they aren't wasting their time. I think you've been doing that to some extent in this thread.

I hope so. There's obviously a limit to what we can do with words, and after that it comes down to actions. Hopefully we can get this competition moving and demonstrate that we're willing to put our money where our mouth is..


I agree N3V isn't Auran, but I'm not quite certain what it is. The Trainzdev site was extremely useful for learning about TS2009/10 requirements and how to put them together.

The Trainzdev site was a wiki and a forum. The wiki lives on and has been significantly extended, and we've deprecated the forum in favour of using the Auran forums. It would be nice to have an archive of the Trainzdev forums available for reading, but that's out of my control.


One weakness is the Russian and eastern Europe side not being as well represented on the DLS as it could be. For example "V6E Mittelstadt Tram Route NOW ON DLS" great layout but try downloading it and see what a hunt you need to do to find the dependencies. Getting them on board should give a reasonable payback in providing content including sessions. How you do it I don't know.

This is certainly true as a general rule - there's often a community for each major locale and some of these are very independent of the English-language community. This is unfortunate and we'd certainly like to improve on our relations with these communities in the future.


I do suspect that this message is not politically correct and will disappear shortly from the forum but I think it is a valid analysis of what N3V needs to think about.

I have no idea what might give you that opinion.

kind regards,

chris
 
First, let me say that I did not enter the competition because of the restrictive rules of built-in content only. If you allow content from the DLS which is not built-in, you have a much better chance of getting some real competition going.

All the confusion expressed in this thread about what makes a session and how they are created drives home the request I made on the original Contest Anouncement thread - that it would be helpful to have a specific Forum catagory for Session Creation. One place where we could share ideas and discuss problems and solutions to creating award winning sessions. If you are serious about showing off this fine feature of Trainz, surely it deserves its own Forum Catagory.

I have looked at very few session from the DLS because the ones I have tried are so lame. Go to industry A, pick up cars, go to industry B, drop off cars, etc. Surely you are looking for someting a bit more challenging. Can you give us some quality examples of what you are looking for?

Of course, if someone wants to make more session rules, that's fine - just make sure the rule is general purpose and reusable enough not to fall foul of the 'no black boxes' competition term, and make sure it's available on the download station.

Can you expand on the "black boxes"? What defines a black box?

Is there an optimal time limit you are looking for? What if the session is open ended, permitting operations to go on for multiple days?

Are prototype operations important or can I create any silly way of running the railroad as long as it is entertaining?
 
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First, let me say that I did not enter the competition because of the restrictive rules of built-in content only. If you allow content from the DLS which is not built-in, you have a much better chance of getting some real competition going.

We are thinking of allowing rules and driver orders from the DLS. We still have a focus on built-in content (and thus small downloads) - locos and rolling stock still need to be built-in items.

All the confusion expressed in this thread about what makes a session and how they are created drives home the request I made on the original Contest Anouncement thread - that it would be helpful to have a specific Forum category for Session Creation. One place where we could share ideas and discuss problems and solutions to creating award winning sessions. If you are serious about showing off this fine feature of Trainz, surely it deserves its own Forum Category.
Looking at what we have at the moment, we have Content Creation Support (and making sessions is content creation), and the scripting forum - which is rather more at the 'making rules and orders' end of the spectrum.

We could encourage discussion of sessions in Content Creation Support, extend the Scripting forum to also cover session creation, or create something new. We'll have a think about this :)

I have looked at very few session from the DLS because the ones I have tried are so lame. Go to industry A, pick up cars, go to industry B, drop off cars, etc. Surely you are looking for someting a bit more challenging. Can you give us some quality examples of what you are looking for?
I think the key thing is to set the player a task, and check up on how well they are doing it.

What the task is, and how you define 'well' is up to you.

Can you expand on the "black boxes"? What defines a black box?
You won't hit this unless you've done significant work outside of surveyor - either by writing your own rule(s), or creating your session using a 3rd party tool rather than the surveyor interface.

If you are writing your own rule:

* Make it perform a clean task - if you are writing one to detect badly formed consists for example, do only that task - and trigger subrules to take action when the condition is detected. Don't apply a fixed penalty to your own scoring system from within your rule's code, as someone else may have a different scoring system, and want different action, yet still want to use the same test.

* Don't hard-code anything inside it. Don't record the name of any object in the map or session within the code for the rule. Make sure they can all be specified in surveyor, via the rules interface.

If the rule is good, creators will want to use it in sessions for a number of maps. If something in it's coding means it can't do this, then you have a problem.

Is there an optimal time limit you are looking for?
I'd say between 30 minutes and 2 hours is good.

That's not to say that a session that takes only 15 minutes can't be fun, or that people won't play and get enjoyment from a session that takes an entire day, but most people will want something within roughly the above timeframe.

The longer the session, the more likely people are to want to save it and continue later, so if you've made a long session, you need to pay close attention to saving and continuing from a save.

Making save work properly is more the realm of rule creators than session creators, but you will want to test it anyway, because you might have used a rule (particularly a 3rd party rule) that doesn't work properly in this regard. If you can either avoid this rule, or persuade it's creator to fix it, it may be beneficial to your entry at judging time...

What if the session is open ended, permitting operations to go on for multiple days?
Open ended could be a problem. You need to set the player a task, and check on how well they do it.

If you have a session that sets a task, and watches (say) about an hour of player activity - giving them a message (and maybe granting an achievement if they complete it perfectly), and then allow them to play on afterwards, that's fine - but if you use "open ended" as an excuse to not check up on the player to find out how well or even if they are performing the task, then that's not good, and will count against you. In the extreme, it could mean your session is regarded as "not substantially complete".

Are prototype operations important or can I create any silly way of running the railroad as long as it is entertaining?
The judges will be looking for an enjoyable experience from the session. So the question is "Does prototypical accuracy have an impact on enjoyment".

There's also the related question of just exactly what is fun.

Speaking personally, (and I'm a great fan of prototypical operations), the danger area for me is in trying to be prototypical and failing. Or starting out with a high level of prototypical behaviour and having that deteriorate throughout the session.

However, start out obviously unprototypical, and that's not a problem. As an example, I distinctly remember a long time ago a scenario about crashing as many 'krokodil' locomotives as possible in the shortest time. As I recall, you got extra points for speeding and passing red signals, as well. Utterly unprototypical - but also hugely fun. And memorable too - it was for UTC, and if I can remember it a good 8 years or so later, it must have been good :)
 
Before i start working on new session i need the answer on this.
In Announcement thread you said that map modifications are not permitted. Does it mean, that using session layer and make the changes for semaphores or set in additional MINs, isn't allowed.

I'd be guessing that map modding is not permitted as auran want the thing to be easy to download. Session modding adding markers etc I'd think would be fine, absolutely fine if you only use built in stuff. I think they just want it to be one download, for the people that do donwload it....

I see the biggest problem to people doing a session with only built in stuff is that most people that would be into the session building thing would have already downloaded stuff from the download station, I think the rules should be amended so that is fine as long as the items are still on the download station.

Many people download stuff from other sources. Because of that they really cannot use that install of trainz without the risk of adding something that is not on the DLS. That makes it hard for other people to make their stuff work as it is missing things.
For those people they would need to either have a second computer capable of running trainz and install trainz on that. Or Install trainz a second time on the same computer but in a different plasce. That of cause would I'm guessing overwrite the trainz shortcutz in the start menu meaning their own trainz version would seam to vanish.... of cause that can be overcome...
Maybe Auran could in the contest explaine how to do that for the eager beavers that do not know how.

Personally I'd like to see the contest opened much wider and upload anything but if there are missing dependiencies you will not be able to upload untill you remove / replace the missing bits. That should apply to the layout locos and the session etc etc I guess

I fell doing this will alow people to be more creative. But there would need to be some sort of max downloads limit as for people with no download ticket waiting more than 15 minutes is along time..to get trainz working

Anyway to the people that enjoyed much ado about BR so much they got me download tickets thanks.
When I get a chance I'll do more work on it re scoring and better instructions. And of cause fix that jolly engine that derails and improve frame rates.
 
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I'd be guessing that map modding is not permitted as auran want the thing to be easy to download.

This competition is about building sessions for the TS2010 builtin maps. If you modify a map and re-save it, it's no longer built-in, and would have to be downloaded again. That's why modifying the route layers is not permitted.

Session modding adding markers etc I'd think would be fine, absolutely fine if you only use built in stuff.
You can add whatever builtin content you desire to the session layers.

I see the biggest problem to people doing a session with only built in stuff is that most people that would be into the session building thing would have already downloaded stuff from the download station, I think the rules should be amended so that is fine as long as the items are still on the download station.
We are considering permitting Session Rules and Driver Orders from the download station. We are not going to allow all content from the download station - as we'd end up with a set of really huge downloads if that were the case. We want people who haven't previously downloaded much and may not have a first class ticket to be able to download these sessions quickly and easily. The rules are designed to ensure this.

Using the 'builtin' filter in Surveyor will help when working on your session.

Of course, content from our addon packs is also considered 'built in', so if you've got addon packs installed, you may wish to either do a second install, or temporarily disable them. Easiest way to do this is to remove the keys from the launcher - after writing down what they were of course so you can put them back in!

Many people download stuff from other sources. Because of that they really cannot use that install of trainz without the risk of adding something that is not on the DLS.
See my above comment about filters. For the competition, you'll probably want two filters. One showing just builtin content, which you use when placing trains and otherwise editing the session layers, and one showing builtin or DLS content when you are working on your rules and orders.

This builtin or DLS filter may also be helpful when creating routes to upload to the DLS if you want to avoid having missing dependencies people can't find.
 
More AI please

Perhaps I can add a few comments and observations.

Dap, post #56:

"I have looked at very few session from the DLS because the ones I have tried are so lame. Go to industry A, pick up cars, go to industry B, drop off cars, etc. Surely you are looking for someting a bit more challenging."

Isn't the actual purpose of real rail roads to pick up something (where something could be lumps of coal, drops of liquid, pieces of metal, people, ... ) and take it to somewhere else?

But I'd have to agree that doing only that can be a very unrewarding. Hence what has become my obsession with AI interactions which, at least to me, add an important element of reality to sessions and an extra layer of complexity.

If you look at, for example, my Harbor Master route, the AI takes a convoluted route from one portal to another that makes it appear that the AI trainz are heading both with and against the direction of travel of the player train. At one squeeze point you have to wait for an on-coming AI train; at another it is heading in the same direction. The trick is to keep one eye on the map view and try to make flying crosses.

However, I think that I've taken the approach of AI + squeeze points about as far as it can be taken in Harbor Master and some of my other routes (PO&N, IndustRail, Riverside, ...). Which is why way back in post #17 I said:

"I've probably done as many sessions as anybody else. But in all honesty, I feel as if I've got to the stage where I don't want to do any more sessions for my routes that came with TS2010. And without in any way wanting to denigrate any of the routes by other authors, I'm not all that interested in them.

What does interest me are the routes I've uploaded since the release of TS2010. I think that these push the game play just a little bit further than I though was possible when you called for expressions of interest for routes for inclusion in TS2010."


The small IntenCity and the larger Krashnburne routes take the AI up a notch - single track "smoke stack USA" routes with crossing loops and the AI heading in both directions simultaneously. Has anybody tried the sessions?

Yes, it is still "Load product X at A and unload it at B" but for those who have tried the sessions is it a bit more of a challenge finding a slot between the AI, making sure you make the next loop before it's occupied by an AI, and gaining access to the industrial spurs for switching? Is it even interesting to just use the 4-key view and watch the AI work their way around? Is it more interesting or have I been wasting my time?

Finally, how long to make a session? Surely it more like an evening's inspiration, one evening to set it up + one more to test + a final evening packaging it all up?

Phil
 
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