Should the Flag be Taken off UP?

...every 184 days....

:cool: ...if your suggesting Union Pacific will pass a locomotive through their shops with a desecrated flag decal...I'm not seeing it...

In fact, the CSX & Norfolk Southern have small flag decals around the cab windows, but I have never seen one messed up.

Like I wrote in post #17, feel free to inform the railroad if you see a conflict, but not if it's just dirty...that will automatically be taken care of.

By the way, road crews don't necessarily write-up appearance items because the visual is cared for at service time, so you may be doing them a favor.

I would...
 
Americans seem to have their flag everywhere! Is there some kind of covering for a lack of confidence?! Anyway that it gets a bit worn on a locomotive so what? Your are going to have the elements attacking trains all the time and too much emotion shouldn't be read into the flag matter.
 
rjhowie2 said:
Americans seem to have their flag everywhere! Is there some kind of covering for a lack of confidence?! Anyway that it gets a bit worn on a locomotive so what? Your are going to have the elements attacking trains all the time and too much emotion shouldn't be read into the flag matter.
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The flags in a lot of cases were put up after 9/11. They have been put everywhere to remember the innocent people who were killed by how some refer to them as "animals". We all have our flags flying proud because no matter what anyone does to us we will not back down.

Indeed elements do attack the trains all the time, however it is an American flag, and as such needs to be treated with the same respect flags flown on flag poles do. Not to mention UP was asked by the VFW to TAKE CARE of the flags, not let them fade away and die. If the other railroads can take care of the flags they have on there locomotives then so can UP.
 
rjhowie2 said:
Americans seem to have their flag everywhere! Is there some kind of covering for a lack of confidence?! Anyway that it gets a bit worn on a locomotive so what? Your are going to have the elements attacking trains all the time and too much emotion shouldn't be read into the flag matter.
Click to expand...

Lack of confidence, no. National pride, yes. We still have that despite the world's disdain for it.

If I remember correctly, didn't UP start all the flap about using their corporate image for profit by model manufacturers? They tried to sue for a slice of the profits and ensure their "image" was shown properly.

Maybe it's time to take backyard's advice and start writing them. If we have to license their corporate image, it's time they start respecting ours.

Dave......
 
On the subject of the American flag being everywhere, they are proud of it and show it, and why not, the reason that the British flag, The Union flag, its only the Union Jack when flown on a ship (and no civilian ship is officially allowed to fly it without the navy's permission) is that it must be taken down before sunset, rather hard to do with a painted flag ;)
The reason it must be taken down I hear you ask, its because it was decreed by one of the Kings or Queens that the sun must never set on the British Empire :eek:
Also as the Union flag is a royal standard you have to get the permission of the royalty to use it in any commercial way :hehe: :hehe:

Cheers David
 
Here in Australia our restrictions for flags are strict. We cannot put flags on as advertising but you can advertise it is made in Australia. As such, putting on a flag on a train is considered advertisement saying that the train is Australian, problem solved for us.
 
FlyingScottmond said:
Here in Australia our restrictions for flags are strict. We cannot put flags on as advertising but you can advertise it is made in Australia. As such, putting on a flag on a train is considered advertisement saying that the train is Australian, problem solved for us.
Click to expand...

Thats because Australia is still ruled by the British royal family, think I am wrong, then why is she the Queen of Australia ???? and why does a democratically elected government have to ask the Queens permission to govern for their elected term.

oo er I've made a political statement, I wonder how long it will last.

Cheers David
 
pommie said:
the reason that the British flag, The Union flag, its only the Union Jack when flown on a ship (and no civilian ship is officially allowed to fly it without the navy's permission) is that it must be taken down before sunset, rather hard to do with a painted flag ;)
The reason it must be taken down I hear you ask, its because it was decreed by one of the Kings or Queens that the sun must never set on the British Empire :eek:
Also as the Union flag is a royal standard you have to get the permission of the royalty to use it in any commercial way :hehe: :hehe:

Cheers David
Click to expand...
I fear the following page suggests that you are misinformed in every particular.

Flying Flags in the United Kingdom


 
As previously pointed out, the locomotives are exposed to the elements. Wind, rain, snow, sun, intense heat, freezing temperatures etc.
Plus, a few runs through a long tunnel with make it extremely dirty.
It is hard to keep a locomotive cleam and looking brand new when it goes through all this.

If you are prepared to pay for the decals and labor every time the flag on a locomotive starts fading and showing signs of wear, then be my guest.



I wish the railroads here in Australia had the flags on their locomotives, but we don't. Be glad that the UP is showing that they are proud to be American.

~ Chris, :wave:
 
amigacooke said:
I fear the following page suggests that you are misinformed in every particular.

Flying Flags in the United Kingdom
Click to expand...


Not quite as wrong as you think,

From here http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb-hist.html#civ

What is the correct Flag to be flown on land by Civilians?
This answer was based upon a Minute by Garter, King of Arms:
"There is no Flag in existence answering to this general description. Civilians generally are not authorised to fly or display any Flag. Peers and gentlemen entitled to bear Arms have a right to fly from their Castles or residences a banner of their Arms. The Royal Standard appertains to the Sovereign alone. The Union Flag of the United Kingdom is used by authority throughout the Army and Navy, and the State Departments, usually with some modification or addition by way of distinction. The Union Flag, being the National Flag, appertains to the Nation as a whole, and cannot be considered as specially distinctive of individuals, or groups of individuals. The common practice on occasions of national rejoicing of displaying the Royal Standard and the Union Flag indiscriminately with other Flags must be regarded as an attempt to express loyalty by means of decoration. As to Public Buildings, Schools, etc - State Buildings should fly the Union Flag. Schools etc., should fly the Flag displaying their proper Arms. Municipal Buildings should fly a banner of the Arms of the particular Corporate body. The issue of a Royal Warrant touching this matter would, in my opinion, be inexpedient.
Sir Arthur W. Woods."

What the Government enacts and what the general populace do, are two distinctly different things as far as the flag is concerned.

A lot of the old laws still apply.

Cheers David
 
The Union flag is used to decorate very special loads while in transit.

wootton_1441480c.jpg


Returning servicemen pass through Wootton Bassett.
 
pommie said:
What the Government enacts and what the general populace do, are two distinctly different things as far as the flag is concerned.

A lot of the old laws still apply.

Cheers David
Click to expand...
Ah, but you fail to quote what followed.

There appears to be no such thing as a "correct" flag for use by civilians on land. It seems that any one who has a coat of arms may display them on a flag, and the Union Flag has been used without restraint. A warrant under the Act of Union can be and has been issued fixing the ensigns, ceremonial flags and banners of the United Kingdom, but this warrant does not relate to such flags as private people may fly. The Union flag has been used indiscriminately for a very long period.

There is no power by law to interfere with the use on land of any flag even the King's Standard.

Any such warrant as proposed would therefore be accompanied by no means of enforcing it. There seems no reason why the state should intervene as to flying flags on land, (except as regards the King's Standard). To attempt to enforce any rule would bring the state into conflict with Trades Unions, the Royal Order of Ancient Buffaloes, the Foresters, and for all we know the processions of the Roman Catholics and Ritualists (etc). In fact it is impossible to say where it would end. To lay it down that all schools should use, say the Union Jack, would at once provoke a number of schools in Ireland to display a green flag with a harp, or a sunburst, the Socialists to display red banners. Is the state then to interfere and compel them all to use the Union Jack only ? Such an attempt would I think raise a veritable hornet's nest. The true answer is I think, that "there is no 'correct flag' for use on land except the Royal Standard by the King, and possibly coats of arms by those who possess them.

There is no power at law to enforce the use of any flag. The use of flags on land has been regulated only by custom and good taste.

Home Office minute 1902
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A very British solution, there is no law that applies, just custom and good taste. Wisely, the Home Office intends to leave it that way. :)
 
More to the point, this is the bit that did not sink into my tired ole brain,

"The issue of a Royal Warrant touching this matter would, in my opinion, be inexpedient."

As there was no follow up on this, I assume that the 'Royal Warrant' never touched this matter, the result is, well, erm, I erred in my reasoning :wave:

Cheers David
 
Ronayne said:
As previously pointed out, the locomotives are exposed to the elements. Wind, rain, snow, sun, intense heat, freezing temperatures etc.
Plus, a few runs through a long tunnel with make it extremely dirty.
It is hard to keep a locomotive cleam and looking brand new when it goes through all this.

If you are prepared to pay for the decals and labor every time the flag on a locomotive starts fading and showing signs of wear, then be my guest.



I wish the railroads here in Australia had the flags on their locomotives, but we don't. Be glad that the UP is showing that they are proud to be American.

~ Chris, :wave:
Click to expand...

If a company chooses to use a national symbol for it's advertising, they should be prepared for the expense of maintaining it. No matter which country. The elements do take their toll, but, proper care should be taken within reason. Some I see are in pretty bad shape, though. If not, they should remove that symbol and choose another.

Any company that would legally go after the model railroading industry to protect it's image should put that much effort into it's image to begin with. How much in legal fees do they spend making sure people who play with trains stay properly licensed? Model that locomotive and try and obtain a UP license and see how far you get with it. If they have such a proud heritage, prove it.

Make sure we follow copy write laws while skirting the proper use of the flag in their own advertising. Pretty two faced.

Dave.....
 
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Does it really matter?

Trains used in commerce get dirty, stuff happens and there are people who desecrate anything with graffiti.

As long as the remains of EACH nations casualties are properly covered with their countries flag as a sign of respect and honor, that is what really matters.

Again, stuff gets dirty... we need to learn to live with it. Not a sign of disrespect, just reality.

Have fun,
 
If the flag on those engines is worn & faded a little it just shows that they are working to keep the USA working. I see UP trains on the Ex C&EI go past my house everyday & those flags, no matter what condition make me proud to be a Navy veteran & an American!

Dave Huffman
 
I believe section 8 of the flag code has something to say about putting massive flag decals on locomotives...

(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker’s desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.
Click to expand...

I believe that technically it counts as "decoration" in this case, and is therefore illegal. UP ought to put bunting on their locomotives if they really want to be patriotic.
 
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