I fancy a new computer - thoughts?

J

johnwhelan

Well-known member
I like ecc memory so we'll start off with a W3520 cpu which is an LGA1366 socket.

So [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]an ASUS P6T6 WS Revolution[/FONT] motherboard sounds interesting.

I'm tempted by Fermi but I'm also tempted to go ATI but less than top end card with the intention of replacing with Fermi if Fermi actually works out and isn't a flop. nVidia are being very quiet about the card which makes me suspect it's not going to be a world beater.

I have a copy of Win 7 home 64 bit lying around so 6 gigs of 1066 memory.

Case, I'm after quiet, I'd thought Antec but I'm open to suggestions. Power supply depends on what Fermi wants I suppose but I don't think I'm after a 1000 watts, I have to pay the hydro bill as well.

Hard drives, something big say 2 terrabytes is tempting with a decent warranty, and possibly a Raptor for the boot drive.

Thoughts?

Thanks John
 
Looks like a good system. But if you are concerned enough about data integrity to use ECC, I would expect you would use RAID too.

As for the boot drive, look at an 80Gb SSD, which IIRC is around the same price as a Raptor.

Frankly, if I were going to spend the kind of money you are looking at, I'd go for a lesser system and a bigger SSD. I'm looking at doing a new build for less than half of what you're looking to spend, but I'm considering some form of SSD.
 
RRSignal said:
Looks like a good system. But if you are concerned enough about data integrity to use ECC, I would expect you would use RAID too.

As for the boot drive, look at an 80Gb SSD, which IIRC is around the same price as a Raptor.

Frankly, if I were going to spend the kind of money you are looking at, I'd go for a lesser system and a bigger SSD. I'm looking at doing a new build for less than half of what you're looking to spend, but I'm considering some form of SSD.
Click to expand...

ECC memory just reduces the memory errors and ensures the files written to the hard drive are safe It also flags when two bit corruption has occurred. Raid protects you against hard drives getting corrupted slightly different. On cost grounds I can protect the hard drives by using conventional backups to an external hard drive.

Since this thing is mainly to run Trainz I could probably squeeze TS2010 onto a raptor drive but an SSD might not provide enough space.

Cost can you suggest another way to get i7 performance with ecc memory that's cheaper?

Thanks John
 
Hi John
There is an article the Spring special issue of MaximumPC magazine,called PC Projects. On page 41 there is a list of components needed to build the best bad ass computer that matches the best out there. All for 647 and I'm assuming that's US dollars. I's an interesting article,thinking of building this myself.
 
johnwhelan said:
ECC memory just reduces the memory errors and ensures the files written to the hard drive are safe It also flags when two bit corruption has occurred. Raid protects you against hard drives getting corrupted slightly different. On cost grounds I can protect the hard drives by using conventional backups to an external hard drive.

Since this thing is mainly to run Trainz I could probably squeeze TS2010 onto a raptor drive but an SSD might not provide enough space.

Cost can you suggest another way to get i7 performance with ecc memory that's cheaper?

Thanks John
Click to expand...

I can't help with ECC but if you want i7-like performance, run Windows XP, not Windows 7. :D

Seriously, you've seen me and I'm sure others post about how we can get TS2010 to run like a champ on old, minimum-spec XP machines. OS plays a huge role. So does security and anti-virus software. The two eat up lots of resources. Then there's proper control of background processes, which also eat up resources.

i7 is a great CPU, don't get me wrong. Having 8 Gb of memory is good and well too. But, keep in mind that a bloated OS and bloated security software may and probably will offset any of the gains of that hot hardware.
 
greywolfretired said:
Hi John
There is an article the Spring special issue of MaximumPC magazine,called PC Projects. On page 41 there is a list of components needed to build the best bad ass computer that matches the best out there. All for 647 and I'm assuming that's US dollars. I's an interesting article,thinking of building this myself.
Click to expand...

But that doesn't use ecc memory. My background is in chemistry so whilst to you a memory state is either on or off to me it's ten thousand electrons in a hole all wanting to wander off.

If it wasn't for that I'd put together something based on the i3 or i5 cpu. tomshardware have a couple of nice configurations. Intel have the performance cap at the moment. The other problem is defining how much computer is enough? Content creators have this habit of looking at the latest machines then adding a few more polys on.

The ecc memory forces me into a non mainstream cpu which costs more, I prefer Intel or ASUS motherboards. I use a touchstream keyboard which I think needs a usb type one connection so USB 2 works but I don't think usb 3 does. It also pushes me into more expensive none mainstream motherboards. Newegg.ca for example doesn't even carry this stuff.

Mind you still a lot cheaper than my first computer.

Thanks

Cheerio John
 
RRSignal said:
I can't help with ECC but if you want i7-like performance, run Windows XP, not Windows 7. :D

Seriously, you've seen me and I'm sure others post about how we can get TS2010 to run like a champ on old, minimum-spec XP machines. OS plays a huge role. So does security and anti-virus software. The two eat up lots of resources. Then there's proper control of background processes, which also eat up resources.

i7 is a great CPU, don't get me wrong. Having 8 Gb of memory is good and well too. But, keep in mind that a bloated OS and bloated security software may and probably will offset any of the gains of that hot hardware.
Click to expand...

6 gigs of memory since we are talking triple channel here.

I want to run Win 7 simply for the security point of view. I do do other things than run Trainz and simply speaking Win 7 64 bit is the most secure and safest operating system at the moment.

I'm a minimum risk sort of person.

Cheerio John
 
johnwhelan said:
6 gigs of memory since we are talking triple channel here.

I want to run Win 7 simply for the security point of view. I do do other things than run Trainz and simply speaking Win 7 64 bit is the most secure and safest operating system at the moment.

I'm a minimum risk sort of person.

Cheerio John
Click to expand...

I'm not so certain W7 is more secure than XP. While UAC provides some benefit, malware generally doesn't need administrator privileges to do its dirty work. Most people aren't aware of this, but the "security" improvements in Vista, except for UAC, were mostly aimed at enhancing copy-protection mechanisms (specifically, to make Windows and HD media piracy more difficult); they are not about user protection. Viruses and malware are just as prevalent on Vista and W7 systems, from what I've seen.

The nice thing about XP is it's pretty easy to harden the OS. Not as easy as Win98 was, but much, much easier than Vista and, I presume, W7.

If I ever get the time, and whenever I buy a copy of W7-64, I'm going to put it on a dual-boot with an XP-64.
 
Here are my 2 cents FWIW:
A. OS
- Windows 7 is good - running it on a number of PC's(I also have XP, VISTA, LINUX etc) for both Games and productivity.
- It has less overheads than Vista, but more than XP.
- Yes it is a bigger install.

Please note that for any 32bit OS, more than 4GB of memory is a waste as it is simply not used. Hence why I am running 64Bit windows 7 on my gaming box with 6GB. Even though the game can only address 4GB, the other 2GB can be used for the OS, drivers etc.

Don't forget that WinXP is close to End of life, and MS may not release any security patches(if there are any holes still in the code) for it into the future.

B. Storage
On the HDD/storage setup of the machine...
- By all means get an SSD, they are very fast, and yes I am running one in the laptop on which I am typing this.
They are relatively expensive per GB.

Thus you may want to consider a number of options:
1. Buy a big enough SSD(or more than one) to store everything on SSD's
I can't do this as my other games and tools take up many GB.

2. Buy a SSD and 1-2 normal HDD's
Install the OS on the SSD for fast boot times
Look at what else you want to install on the SSD, and prioritize
For the overflow use the normal hdd/s (2 could be setup in RAID 0 for faster performance - just make sure you back them up).

Having said all of the above on the storage side, I am currently running a single 1TB drive on my win7 box, with a 70GB Swap/temp Raptop HDD. It's not all that fast but it does work(and yes I am looking to change this in the near future).

Please feel free to take the above with a grain of salt, as they are only my thoughts on the OS and storage components for a new PC.

Cheers,
AP
 
RRSignal said:
I'm not so certain W7 is more secure than XP. While UAC provides some benefit, malware generally doesn't need administrator privileges to do its dirty work. Most people aren't aware of this, but the "security" improvements in Vista, except for UAC, were mostly aimed at enhancing copy-protection mechanisms (specifically, to make Windows and HD media piracy more difficult); they are not about user protection. Viruses and malware are just as prevalent on Vista and W7 systems, from what I've seen.

The nice thing about XP is it's pretty easy to harden the OS. Not as easy as Win98 was, but much, much easier than Vista and, I presume, W7.

If I ever get the time, and whenever I buy a copy of W7-64, I'm going to put it on a dual-boot with an XP-64.
Click to expand...

Shall we simply say before I retired one of the things they paid me for was to talk to central Microsoft Security. I am very comfortable with the fact that Win 7 is a lot more secure than XP and even Vista but thank you for your input.

Cheerio John
 
powella said:
Here are my 2 cents FWIW:
A. OS
- Windows 7 is good - running it on a number of PC's(I also have XP, VISTA, LINUX etc) for both Games and productivity.
- It has less overheads than Vista, but more than XP.
- Yes it is a bigger install.

Please note that for any 32bit OS, more than 4GB of memory is a waste as it is simply not used. Hence why I am running 64Bit windows 7 on my gaming box with 6GB. Even though the game can only address 4GB, the other 2GB can be used for the OS, drivers etc.

Don't forget that WinXP is close to End of life, and MS may not release any security patches(if there are any holes still in the code) for it into the future.

B. Storage
On the HDD/storage setup of the machine...
- By all means get an SSD, they are very fast, and yes I am running one in the laptop on which I am typing this.
They are relatively expensive per GB.

Thus you may want to consider a number of options:
1. Buy a big enough SSD(or more than one) to store everything on SSD's
I can't do this as my other games and tools take up many GB.

2. Buy a SSD and 1-2 normal HDD's
Install the OS on the SSD for fast boot times
Look at what else you want to install on the SSD, and prioritize
For the overflow use the normal hdd/s (2 could be setup in RAID 0 for faster performance - just make sure you back them up).

Having said all of the above on the storage side, I am currently running a single 1TB drive on my win7 box, with a 70GB Swap/temp Raptop HDD. It's not all that fast but it does work(and yes I am looking to change this in the near future).

Please feel free to take the above with a grain of salt, as they are only my thoughts on the OS and storage components for a new PC.

Cheers,
AP
Click to expand...

On the storage side I'm only interested in Trainz performance. The operating system doesn't do much when Trainz is running so I can't see the benefit of an SSD for the operating system.

The big drives have a large track size so if the files are arranged correctly they should just get picked up from one track no track to track head movement delay which is about half the delay when reading.

160 gig Intel SSD costs about $550 Canadian a 300 gig raptor 3.5 inch drive costs $250. The Raptor is big enough to hold a fair chunk of Trainz folders.

So the choice is between one big drive and one big drive with a smaller faster drive for Trainz and the operating system. The big drive is tempting as its cheaper I can always add in another faster drive if the performance isn't there.

I have an old copy of XP floating around, a new unopened Vista DVD and a Win 7 upgrade cd. The XP copy only has drivers for the old SAS drives on the DVD I wonder if I could load it up onto a Sata drive somehow to upgrade it to Win 7.

Any thoughts about XP drivers for SATA? Update searching the web it looks like it can be done.

Thanks John
 
Last edited:
John,

You can get sata on XP from a CD, you need to make sure the XP cd has the latest SP, and the drivers for SATA inbuilt into the install package(from your old PC with a CD/DVD burner).

Do a search on nLite (from memory) which can do this.

Cheers,
AP
 
powella said:
John,

You can get sata on XP from a CD, you need to make sure the XP cd has the latest SP, and the drivers for SATA inbuilt into the install package(from your old PC with a CD/DVD burner).

Do a search on nLite (from memory) which can do this.

Cheers,
AP
Click to expand...

Ta, I think I had sorted that one out mentally. I have XP with SP2 on the install DVD so hopefully that one should work. Save activating the Vista license to get to Win 7.

Thanks John
 
John,

Since you are going for the W3520 (a Xeon version of the Core i7) , you should opt for a mobo that can handle 1333MHz FSB (the Asus P6T does) and use RAM clocked for 1333MHz to get the most out of the onCPU memory management.

Also, you may be surprised at how much the OS gets involved in running even apps that don't appear to rely on traditional OS functions. I think you might want to reconsider an SSD for the system disk. Besides, what essentially zero seek time does for booting is incredible.

You may also want to consider beefing up the cooling for the CPU. A lot of folks overlook that. The usual standard Intel cooling is actually kind of marginal. You ought to look at a third party cooler even if you don't intend to overclock.

Finally with respect to the case, go quiet and go with one that simplifies routing cables. The Antec P183 is good on both fronts. Add in a modular P/S and you can avoid the usual wad of cables blocking airflow inside the case. Clean and neat isn't just about appearance. Another plus for the P183 is that the P/S is on the bottom (lower CG, power cord at the bottom) in its own compartment.

Your post was sort of timely. I found myself needing a system with more oomph than my netbook that wasn't my company issued laptop. My computer pastimes are almost all simulations, both flight and trains. Add in a long term (30 years) interest in programming computer graphics. I decided to go with what I call the Uber Computer. I realize that there are some configurations that are over and above it's capabilities but cost is an issue. The goal was bang for buck. The system has an MSI X58 SLI mobo, Core i7 920, 6 GB triple channel 1333MHz DDR3 RAM, 128GB SSD, 1TB HD, Blu-ray recorder (it was such a good deal, I couldn't resist), Geforce GTX285, 26" 1920x1200 LCD, RF keyboard and mouse, Zalman cooler for the CPU, Antec P183 case (really quiet) with 2 additional 120mm fans, modular 1KW P/S (just in case I decide to go SLI) and Bose Companion2 speakers. It will be running W7 Pro 64-bit. I start the build later today after UPS delivers the last two boxes. Christmas in March! Should be able to handle anything Trainz might try to do to it.
 
mawilson said:
John,

Since you are going for the W3520 (a Xeon version of the Core i7) , you should opt for a mobo that can handle 1333MHz FSB (the Asus P6T does) and use RAM clocked for 1333MHz to get the most out of the onCPU memory management.

Also, you may be surprised at how much the OS gets involved in running even apps that don't appear to rely on traditional OS functions. I think you might want to reconsider an SSD for the system disk. Besides, what essentially zero seek time does for booting is incredible.

You may also want to consider beefing up the cooling for the CPU. A lot of folks overlook that. The usual standard Intel cooling is actually kind of marginal. You ought to look at a third party cooler even if you don't intend to overclock.

Finally with respect to the case, go quiet and go with one that simplifies routing cables. The Antec P183 is good on both fronts. Add in a modular P/S and you can avoid the usual wad of cables blocking airflow inside the case. Clean and neat isn't just about appearance. Another plus for the P183 is that the P/S is on the bottom (lower CG, power cord at the bottom) in its own compartment.

Your post was sort of timely. I found myself needing a system with more oomph than my netbook that wasn't my company issued laptop. My computer pastimes are almost all simulations, both flight and trains. Add in a long term (30 years) interest in programming computer graphics. I decided to go with what I call the Uber Computer. I realize that there are some configurations that are over and above it's capabilities but cost is an issue. The goal was bang for buck. The system has an MSI X58 SLI mobo, Core i7 920, 6 GB triple channel 1333MHz DDR3 RAM, 128GB SSD, 1TB HD, Blu-ray recorder (it was such a good deal, I couldn't resist), Geforce GTX285, 26" 1920x1200 LCD, RF keyboard and mouse, Zalman cooler for the CPU, Antec P183 case (really quiet) with 2 additional 120mm fans, modular 1KW P/S (just in case I decide to go SLI) and Bose Companion2 speakers. It will be running W7 Pro 64-bit. I start the build later today after UPS delivers the last two boxes. Christmas in March! Should be able to handle anything Trainz might try to do to it.
Click to expand...


I like the sound of the Antec. I'll reread tomshardware comments about 1066 and 1333 memory, and check the price difference, my understanding is it didn't make that much performance difference. I had wondered about a different cooler. I was thinking more of 1080 for blu ray on the monitor.

Something like a [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Acer H213HBMID [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]21.5IN LCD Widescreen Monitor Black 1920X1080 20000:1 5ms DVI VGA HDMI.

I prefer headphones to speakers better quality for the same money and you don't need to worry about the room acoustics.

Thanks for the thoughts

Cheerio John
[/FONT]
 
Of course the interesting thing is AMD is coming up on the radar screen.

Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition gets quite a respectable write up in toms this month.

Can I get something with ecc memory that's AMD based with the same performance?

Thanks John
 
Life gets interesting ASUS M4N68T-M ddr3 ecc memory so it looks like an AMD solution might be much more cost effective.

Cheerio John

 
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