Trainz and WAR

On the Australian Screenshots site recently.....
Someone had the audacity to write about Remembrance day Nov 11.
I guess most of the people on this site are so young that they think war is all about terrorism and what the TV networks beat up every night on TV.
As the comments on the Aus screenshots site was censored by another very young moderator, because yet another young man had complained that real life had no place in the thread.
I got to tell you, that had not my great grandfather and many of his cousins given their life in the Great War, and many more in the second war, all of you people out there might have been speaking another language these days, or worse still, if the enemy that nearly took over Australia had done it, you may not even be here now to play your games on a computer, that may not even have been invented. Remember this "enemy" turned out to be a copier, rather than inventor.

Young people of today probably have no idea what war means. I am an old bloke who spent 12 months in Vietnam, as a Engineer sapper. My job was up front, clearing trails of mines, searching tunnels, delousing booby traps and building a mine field that eventually took out many of my mates.
I am 64 years old and presently less than a thousand troops are in the middle east doing what everybody had to do as part of growing up when I was a youngster.
Today people volunteer to go to war. Prior to the ALP taking power from the Liberals in 1975 Australians faced conscription and were sent to war like it or not.
We made the World safer, and I believe many youngsters can be very ignorant about what soldiers have done to keep your way of life in a free country the way it is today.
Graffiti vandalism is my gauge of the disrespect the young exhibit towards the old farts who built this Country. One has to wonder what their children will be doing to upset them, as they grow old. Oh yes you all will grow old, it is inescapable, I am sorry to say. So treat others with the respect you would hope will be returned to you during your life on this great planet we call home.
Cheers and with respect
Rod Young
"Lest we forget"

Never mind!

Hi Rod
The posts that were removed, were removed because some people decided to take things off topic. They were only removed as a preventative measure, so that the users involved didn't go to far.

That said, I also didn't miss the significance of the day. Those of us in the #Trainz room had a minute silence (admittedly a bit late, but only because I forgot the appropriate command, and I thought it was 1 not 2 minutes ).

However, we do ask that users keep political comments off the forums. This is not the place for them. Remembering is one thing, making political comments about the events is another, and this is how things get out of hand.

Thank you for your cooperation

"Lest we forget"

Well said Rod, and thank you for your patriotism, commitment, sacrifice and service!

Rod
I couldn't agree more and thanks Zec for not closing this thread. I, for one, don't see anything wrong with acknowledging the sacifices that our soldiers have made for us. After all, they didn't declare the wars, they just had to fight them. This isn't a political statement, but rather a simple statement of 'THANKS'. I agree fully that politics has no place here on the forum, but acknowledging this day is entirely proper.

Mike

As a ten year vet of the US Navy, I quite agree with your comments Rod, and I certainly respect the sacrifice you and others have made. Military experience is a privilege and an honor. I salute all the vets on these forums.

I had the 'audacity' to say that we should leave this sort of discussion out of the Australian Screenshots thread. If that's what you mean.

We should remember in our own ways. But, on global forums such as this, I do not like to see any mention of war or politics. Admittedly, it's hard not to comment, as seeing both sides of many stories, I have strong opinions.

I never once mentioned that these were not brave people, who deserved to be remembered. I have known many in my life who have fought in many wars. Both men and women. On both sides of some conflicts. War does not make one great, but ones personal sacrifice certainly does.

Despite my strong feelings against any sort of war and political blunders which cause it, endless propaganda (for what?), I still filled a vase with poppies yesterday. We all remember differently.

"Lest we forget"

James

Rod,
I don't get it.
First it sounds like you are complaining about something but then you seem to support what is complained about. Bear in mind I am a former serviceman myself.
Yes, some civilians do not understand certain things about the subjects related to military and war. But there is a flipside to what you say, that some who wish to teach respect for things military just flat out shouldn’t. A few examples.

1 - Once in the past few years there was a post here by a user that was supposed to have been, according to his words, about respecting his brother’s service. This post was deleted (not by my request though if I had seen it I would have) and while I cannot speak for Auran, here’s why I agree with the deletion.
There are also those who have lost loved ones in military service to be considered when posting images. When losing someone in a horrendous way, not all those connected to that person react the same, this includes any death of similar fashion such as someone dying in a train wreck. Certain pictures can cause a loved one left behind heartache and pain even years later because of the reminders brought back therefore certain pictures should never be posted openly in a publicly accessible fashion. Some civilians think this is a political correctness and free speech issue and complain they should be allowed to, “do what they want,” but they are completely wrong. To make things worse, this post got reposted on another Trainz forum and everyone who posted in the topic used it as a, “bash Auran,” excuse claiming Auran had no respect like these guys knew better.
Had they been as intelligent as they claim, they wouldn’t have gone in the direction they did. Negligently harming others including those who suffered such a loss is disrespectful, free speech regardless.
Because this also happened at a time when a lot of high and mighty attitude was going around by some of these posters towards, well, anyone, it was pretty clear no discussion of the matter was possible since they arrogantly assumed they were righteous and being pretty pissed at how ignorantly this was handled combined with the, “we‘re practically never wrong,” position taken at the time, I just left that place.

2 - Recently at a Veterans of Foreign Wars post in my region, some teenager set a flag on fire for some reason. The post commander went looking for the kid and gave him the options of either going to the police (I still don’t know why this wasn’t chosen), fighting a vet (what happens if the kid wins, dummy?) or wearing a sign while taped to a flagpole. For some unknown and ignorant reason, the last option got chosen under the false claim it taught respect for our country’s flag.
I remember how respect for the flag got taught, it did not involve taping people to poles with signs on them. That’s just a humiliating act that teaches nothing. Respect involved learning procedures for flag raising and lowering and folding plus history classes on it and classes on why it was designed that way. None of this is required learning by civilians. The veteran post commander could have offered these procedures and classes as an option but didn’t even try so this kid spends the rest of his life not only humiliated but he still has no idea what actual respect for the flag is.

3 - Then there are those who try to teach but shouldn’t due to their mental condition. I could give a couple of specific examples but I am aware enough that some may them too graphic and offensive given a certain subject matter so I will have to figure any reader knows what I am speaking of.

Simply stating that teaching this particular subject is not that easy as some think and going solely by gut reaction or emotion can lead to inappropriate acts.

I would like to say thanks for posting in a respectable fashion on this subject though I am still confused what position you took.

Some things on TV news networks are not worth squat but that’s a whole other subject.

Regarding Trainz and the military, I am surprised not to see a bit more, I know we all have our different interests and some are not military.
I have seen some items like vehicles and base buildings, I think a German POW camp, some ships, a couple of American steamers and some American railcar reskins. But I have never seen or known much about non-American items.
Until the day I can afford to purchase something, I cannot myself consider making much in the area.
Shame, from what I have read about American military railcars, the subject is fascinating since they had to be built to accommodate non-US standards as well as our own and were designed to be portable, unlike non-military railcars that stay on rails (usually) military ones could be taken apart and folded for transport, I think they can also be re-gauged easily using option parts. Also there is the effect of our government on the train industry during WWII, for example one builder tried entering the diesel market with what appeared to be a decent engine but never got beyond building one because the government directed them to focus efforts on modifying American steamers to operate in Europe, doing that cost them money and they wound up going out of business with no more of the diesel produced.

James,
I partially agree with no war and politics talk but where military and trains intersect shouldn't be left out, and you cannot discuss certain train related issues without mentioning government's effect such as the description I provided about the one builder. Personally, I think so long as such limited discussion stays on facts and no attack type posts about goverment or politics is made, there shouldn't be anything wrong with it.

StorkNest said:

Rod,

James,
I partially agree with no war and politics talk but where military and trains intersect shouldn't be left out, and you cannot discuss certain train related issues without mentioning government's effect such as the description I provided about the one builder. Personally, I think so long as such limited discussion stays on facts and no attack type posts about goverment or politics is made, there shouldn't be anything wrong with it.

Click to expand...

I really do not like to say this, but it is something that is almost impossible to bring up without someone (possibly me) bringing up politics.

Does anybody remember what happened when people started making Trainz content (I think on the old forums, before they went kaput) depicting Nazi icons? It was argued that they should be there for the sake of historical accuracy. For those reasons I cannot disagree with such assets being made. But for a global forum such as this, it must be realised that someone can be indirectly offending someone to a great degree.

Many people interested in Trainz or model trains are interested in militaria, or such. That's fine. But it's not something shared on a global level, with people from every nation and culture in the world to see, which we have on these forums.

I completely agree that we should remember those who fought for their given cause. But with forums that have a global community, it should be something left to other methods of remembrance.

One example I can give is that many people on the 'winning' side of a war may celebrate their side of the war. But the others, on a global scale, may have not gone to war by choice. Their people died too, for a cause that they believed in as equally as the 'winners' did. And so, it can cause great offence.

Personally, I see any loss of human life as tragic. I see any notion of one nation being better off because they 'won' a war as better off completely ridiculous. History is written by the winners, as the old quote goes. So, if any other party won a hypothetical war, then they would be the ones saying that they were brave, and they were the ones who helped our freedom or prosperity. If we grew up in an age where say, Nepolian managed to succeed completely with his ambitions, conquering Russia and so forth, we might end up being rather thankful to him for succeeding in our 'cause', and giving us what we have today.

This forums has people from all over the world. And as such, I see patriotism completely out of place on these forums. Pride in one's country, however, I cannot disagree with. But patriotism? No. That indicates that there are winners and losers, superiority and inferiority.

People are people. We're all human.

I really do hope that this post is taken how I intend it. I am not trying to start anything political - I am trying to say that it should have no place on these forums where people from all countries are getting together and enjoying a common hobby! And we're all enjoying that. So let us do that. We can remember the fallen however we chose, but these forums are for our hobby or interest in Trainz.

Hi Storknest.
I guess I agreed with the first post on Australian Screenshots bringing our attention to the fact that today was designated in Australia as a time to remember.
I thought the post should have stood alone, and needed no response, it said what it said, and it was unnecessary to add to it in that forum, and that was what nearly happened.
It was (in my opinion) disrespectful to say that it had no place there. Since 1920 Australians have chosen to remember our war dead on that day, and their sacrifice for us all.
Yes I tried to educate, and I waste my time, I know, but I just don't buy a poppy, I live my life remembering what the poppy stands for.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity of standing up for those who no longer can. I once read that in Germany children are not taught about the war, as in Japan it is simply glossed over. I read that Microsoft print different and often contradictory programs to suck up to folk in other Countries and by doing this they seek to change history.
I sure hope we let people tell it how it was, for zero dollars, than tell it how it will be for billions of dollars
Cheers
Rod

Guys, please.
Lets leave this at "Lest we forget". If it does go any further, I will have to remove the thread.

Just a little note. The first post on this was political and everything went from there. I'm not pointing fingers here, I'm just stating why they were removed.

I'm really sorry to do this, but if any further posts are made that are discussing the politics, I will have to start removing posts again.
Thank you

--deleted by user--

Ironically war has less to do with Nations and their politics than is does with the nature of any society. Society being you and I, and those ants over there, and chimps, and other species. Nations and politics tend to formalize war, but intra species aggression has been in our nature from the beginning of time. War need not be sanctioned by any government.

Zec
I suggest that you close this thread as it seems that we can't simply say 'thanks' without some repeatedly wanting to bring political views into it.
Mike