SNCF intends to invest billions of dollars into US high-speed rail system.

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http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/...dwest-texas-florida-and-california-corridors/


Breaking: SNCF Proposes Development of High-Speed Rail in Midwest, Texas, Florida, and California Corridors

September 19, 2009
» French organization submits detailed proposals for 220 mph train operation.
Last December, Secretary of Transportation Mary Peters and Representative John Mica (R-FL) announced that the Federal Railroad Administration would begin accepting Expressions of Interest for the development of high-speed lines in the United States. By February, more than 80 groups, including a number of states, train operators, and train constructors, had sent letters describing their interest in being part of the development of American fast train travel. Final responses were due on September 14th.
I’ve obtained documents that show that SNCF, the French national railroad operator made famous by its development of the TGV system, has responded with detailed descriptions of potential operations in four U.S. corridors, all to benefit from train service at speeds of up to 220 mph. The organization refers to this service as HST 220 (220 mph high-speed trains). With the exception of a description of plans by the California High-Speed Rail Authority, SNCF appears to be the only group that submitted a serious, corridor-based response to FRA’s demand, though infrastructure companies Vinci, Spineq, Cintra, Global Via, and Bouygues all sent in letters promoting rather vague interest in involvement.
There is no funding associated with this call for expressions of interest; it is unrelated to the stimulus. Nonetheless, SNCF’s large response — totaling 1,000 pages — exemplifies the degree to which it sees American corridors as a good investment and suggests that the French company is planning an all-out assault on future U.S. rail operations.
The documents indicate that SNCF “Believe the United States is ideally suited for HSR: it features large metropolitan areas that are relatively far apart, a highly mobile population (2.5 times the European average), and a fast-growing awareness of the importance of the environmental challenges HSR can address.” In addition, SNCF’s response was conditioned on viability: it suggests that high-speed rail investment should only occur where operating and maintenance costs would be covered by rider revenue and that socio-economic benefits offset initial public investments in the system. Based on its conclusions, the corridors it has picked for study would meet those guidelines. This is a wholehearted endorsement of U.S. rail investment from the point of view of a very successful European rail company.
SNCF argues that ideal corridors for investment will be up to 600 miles in length, providing service in four hours or less. It contends that the majority of ridership and benefits will come from former road users, though it suggests that up to 90% of mode share could be captured from today’s airline operations on corridors with travel times of less than two hours. Outside of urban cores, tracks would have to be newly constructed to accommodate fast trains that cannot share corridors with freight cars.
The most exciting proposal is the 1,400-mile system it envisions for the Midwest, a network that has never been so fully studied. I’ve detailed SNCF’s proposals for all four of the corridors below.
Midwest Corridor
The first phase of rail investments for the Midwest would extend from Milwaukee to Detroit, via a bypass around Chicago, Fort Wayne, and Toledo, by 2018, with a link to Cleveland opening by 2020. The full system would include new connections from Chicago to St. Louis; Chicago to Cincinnati; and Milwaukee to Minneapolis. SNCF predicts full operation by 2023, though further links along the Ohio 3C corridor and to Kansas City, Pittsburgh, and Toronto could be considered for future development.
SNCF expects that the system would more than cover operations costs, allowing the network’s revenues to be used to repay some of the initial construction costs. The public would subsidize 54% of the $68.5 billion total cost of right-of-way, construction, and trainsets. Benefits from reduced car and air travel, however, are expected to make up for 150% of the government investment in construction costs over a period of just 15 years of operation.
New tracks would would be laid near existing lines and high-speed trains would share existing tracks in urban areas, such as through Chicago. That said, a bypass around Chicago would play a very important role here, especially in shuttling passengers to the city’s airports. SNCF envisions the Midwest Regional Rail Initiative as an important feeder system.
Service would be provided to 28 stations, including to new stops at Chicago O’Hare, Chicago Midway, Milwaukee, Detroit, Cincinnati, and Cleveland airports. City stops would almost all be located in downtown cores. Trains would be standard European high-speed rail trainsets, 200 meters long, with 500 to 550 passengers per unit.
Potential journey times would connect Chicago and St. Louis in 1h44; Minneapolis and Chicago in 2h42; Chicago and Detroit in 1h53; and Indianapolis and Detroit in 2h52. Each journey time is shorter than required today for equivalent air or automobile travel. The first phase would attract 15.8 million passengers a year by 2022; the completed system would serve 42.3 million passengers by 2028.
Travel costs would be in the middle range of fares on peer high-speed systems — from $0.40/mile for trips up to 400 miles to $0.24/mile for trips beyond 600 miles. This is generally lower than equivalent air fares but about a third higher than the cost of non-business automobile travel. Farebox revenue would stabilize at $4.15 billion a year, providing a strong profit source for the operating company, which would more than make up for maintenance costs.
tl;dr SNCF thinks it's a good idea to run proper high-speed trains in the US. I also believe this is a quite agreeable idea. Lots more info in the article, I recommend reading it highly.
 
Very interesting. I'd love to see High Speed rail here. especially on the Chicago-Detroit run; cause that would mean they would go thru my town (and probably stop; since we are one of the biggest stops on the line in terms of passengers)

peter
 
It is great and terrible at the same time.
Sure we need it, but I am still loyal to the old way, a good ol' diesel pulling some passanger cars.
What is the big hurry anymore anyway?
 
1. We need more efficient transport(other than "green" aircraft and motor cars)

2. We need to dethrone ourselves from dealing with foreign countries who'd rather not deal with us.

3. Its vital for the economy

4. We do need it, we have needed it, and we will need it.

Sooner rather than later. HSR wasn't exactly put out by USGOV for the enjoyment of us rail enthusiasts, mind you.

PS. I'm all for it, especially in FL were we can use something like this to relieve inner-city congestion and city-to-city travel.
 
Why can't they just run it straight across from Toronto/Detroit/New York to Los Angeles/Sacramento? Seems more efficient to me. The nation will grow on this transcontinental connection. Speaking of transcontinental high speed...I think VIA needs to think about this as well as Amtrak...or SNCF..

cam:wave:
 
Why can't they just run it straight across from Toronto/Detroit/New York to Los Angeles/Sacramento? Seems more efficient to me. The nation will grow on this transcontinental connection. Speaking of transcontinental high speed...I think VIA needs to think about this as well as Amtrak...or SNCF..

cam:wave:

Because it's not transcontinental. This is more focused on the up-and-coming megapolitan areas (see:America2050.com), which is more efficient and cost effective because most travel is HD(Heavy Dist.) and MD(Moderate Dist.), not TC(Trans Cont'l). HSR between the Rust Belt and Socal isn't going to do much(at least not in this form), not to mention the travel duration will still be about a day and a half (seeing that it takes 3 days or so to cross the North American continent, and speed won't be much of a difference). Smaller regional areas like the Northeast, California, the Midlands/Midwest, and Florida would definetly be more effective. There's another reason why transcontinental won't go through anytime soon; there's no plan calling for it, and the recent money pugged away for this in the stimuli is for a shovel ready program. The only program that is "shovel ready" is Florida, who's reviewed the EIS documents, and has the ROW already purchased including both Termini(Tampa's new Morgan St. Station and OIA's South Terminal Station) and the intermediate station(Lakeland USF Poly). Studies have been conducted, and a large amount of traffic will be consumed by HSR(more than that of California's 3% at least), and here's a website containing several statistics and arguments in favour of FLA becoming the leading contender in HSR outside the NEC. It will also give the NEC a reason to expand further south, and for Florida's line to move northward creating the first North-South Mainline in the US and move outwards(JAX-NO-HOU and PHL-DET-CHI) towards California(and vice versa for Cali-E.C.)

I wills say with disclaimer for my argument that I do have a FL/FHSR bias, seeing I am a Floridian. So don't take it personal :wave:
 
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Ive been reading this for days now, thinking.

That is one hell of a claim. Make back 150% of the cost in 15 years?? That is a very tall order. And the cost at $68.5 Billion, now that is a very very very tall order

However, it worked in France very well, SNCF has the knowledge and skills required to do this, and make it work. They know what they are doing. Now whether the American people would accept such a massive project or not, that is another question. I know I support it. I could make the trip from Chicago to Milwaukee in a half hour or so when I am in the Chicago Area. That is no worse then taking the L from Evanston to downtown, or taking Denver's Light rail to Littleton where I go to school.
 
The system in Florida has been batted around for years. Notice where it goes. Tampa and Miami to Orlando. Guess whats in Orlando? Disney World and all its derivitives. This system isn't really for the average rider going to work. Its for tourists. Do you realy think there will be that many riders to pay for it? Not in the age of the universe. Proponents vastly over estimate the potential ridership and vastly under estimate the cost. Opponets do the opposite. The truth is somewhere in between but is still too expensive to ever justify itself. My opinion is to bill Mickey Mouse and leave taxpayers out of it.

Ben
 
Maybe I`m a bit naive, but can someone explain why America is lagging behind on decent passenger railtransportation. I live in one of the smallest countries in Europe and even we have our own HSL. Europe is riddled with good functioning highspeedlines and semi-HSL`s, extending from South-Spain all the way up to Northeastern-Germany. Even the Russians are building a HSL. And we are working with different countries, each with different Signalling and Electrosystems, hell we even got different trackgauges (Iberian-, Standard- and Russian gauge). Still we managed to overcome these problems to work together and made agreements to use universal systems. We even have electro locomotives which can work on 4 seperate electrification networks (1500DC, 3000DC, 16KV AC & 25KV AC) and over 10 different tracksafety systems enabling them to haul freighttrains from The Netherland to the Russian Border or the south of Italy with a single Engine crossing 5 or 6 borders.

The US on the other has next to nothing compared to this, the only semi-decent connecting is the NEC. I took a train from Atlanta GA to Birmingham AL. It took forever, only went ones a day and even the cabby took me almost from my hotel to the nearest MARTA station and had to ask where the the AMTRAK station was. To my big surprise the station was no bigger then a very small local station would be overhere and that for a city with a population in the millions. You guys have one big national passenger company, AMTRAK which goes almost nowhere and one federal government. That should eliminate many problems compared to Europe. Even more so, the skies above the US are filled to the brim, so expension there is not very likely and you can only make a highway so many lanes wide. A passenger only railtrack system, maybe government owned, seperate from the often poor maintained single track and congested slow moving freight trackage. Now AMTRAK is a "guest" on the the rails of the big ones UP,BNSF,NS and the likes. More then ones even a ill treated guest. Passenger service is main priority overhere, in the US the otherway around.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Its because everyone here (I'm generalizing) thinks rail transportation is an "old" way of doing things. The Gov't invests millions into Auto and Air production; and very little into rail. Almost all of out tracks here are privately owned and operated; with just a few owned by Amtrak which tries their best to keep them up to par.

Now that gas prices are up the airlines and cars are suffering people are starting to think HSR is the way to go.

I guess the other problem is the image Amtrak gets. since AMTK borrows track rights on most of their lines it have a tendency to be very very late. so most people here think that ALL rail transportation runs late always.

peter
 
Bendorsey,

I read about that "fatal flaw" on another transportpolitic.com article, and thats the only reason why I hesitate supporting the FHSR initiative. Although I did hear that the line at OIA is supposed to someday go up to JAX by way of DT Orlando. At the moment If you really look at the 2-phase line, from TPA to ORL is only half of the line, and could be seen as an intermediate station further connecting Miami. Most people think it's only going to benefit Disney World and the ORL-based attractions. This is may be true, but at the moment I can't say for sure.

Overdijk,

Thats because most Americans are Auto and Air-inclined people, ever since the end of WWII, the US has become a suburban nation. Mass transit, cities, and "soviet living"(as my dad calls it) was abandoned ever since the American Dream emerged. Since then, the culture of waste and unnecessary luxury has dilapitated the railway systems, run the nat'l debt into the ground, and caused us to be on "oil life support". Other than that, most people are conservative when it comes to railways. It's seen as a waste of money, despite the fact that it hardly makes up for other DOT projects such as Interstates, Air subsidies, etc.
 
Although people may think this will stimulate the economy...How will a European company in America help the American economy? Makes no sense there.. The profits will go right to the European CEOs etc etc. It will not and will most likely never re-enter the American Economy to "stimulate" it. So this plan should be shot down just for that reason, and that reason only. Not to mention all the small regional plans with no way of connecting them is pretty dumb(transcon first sounds like a better Idea then build of that so it is all connected). This is like when the bid for the Airforce refueling planes had a bid between Airbus and Boeing.. And Airbus won the bid, but then congress said no no no...Lets do this again, and Boeing once again came out on top. If the U.S. wants to stimulate it's economy so bad it has so be done by UNITED STATES companies. NOT companies from over seas.

Anyways as I said before a trans con route sounds like it would be the best idea since anything built after that would,could and will be easier to connect to the main thoroughfare. Much like the first trans con did. Then as time went on other railroads branched off from it and prospered. There isn't a need to look at what the future holds as far as metropolitan areas since if we have 1 route that has a bunch of smaller lines connecting to it you won't need to worry.. But if you have these smaller regional routes as shown on the map above... YOU STILL can't get anywhere, so it does not help us in no shape or form other then just shoveling **** against the tide. If we truely want to "bring the country together" then we must repeat what we did way back when when the southern pacific and union pacific railroad united America. Doing anything other then that will just unite states, and cities(which we have already done sot here is no need to do again)

Just my 3 USD.:p
 
In a way, this really is sad. We are so unwilling to invest in such infrastructure ourselves that it should become the interest of a foreign company to do so. Folks, we're really going to regret this someday.

WileeCoyote:n:
 
The US on the other has next to nothing compared to this, the only semi-decent connecting is the NEC. I took a train from Atlanta GA to Birmingham AL. It took forever, only went ones a day and even the cabby took me almost from my hotel to the nearest MARTA station and had to ask where the the AMTRAK station was. To my big surprise the station was no bigger then a very small local station would be overhere and that for a city with a population in the millions. You guys have one big national passenger company, AMTRAK which goes almost nowhere and one federal government. That should eliminate many problems compared to Europe. Even more so, the skies above the US are filled to the brim, so expension there is not very likely and you can only make a highway so many lanes wide. A passenger only railtrack system, maybe government owned, seperate from the often poor maintained single track and congested slow moving freight trackage. Now AMTRAK is a "guest" on the the rails of the big ones UP,BNSF,NS and the likes. More then ones even a ill treated guest. Passenger service is main priority overhere, in the US the otherway around.

Just my 2 cents.

You hit dead on some issues I have been arguing for years.

We cannot expand the highways much more, we cannot expand the airports any more, we can't safely put anymore planes into the sky, so what do we do? The answer is Amtrak!! Its been underfunded since 1971, and the infrastructure for dedicated passenger traffic does not even exist! The FAA recently reduced the minimum passing altitude from 2000 feet between planes to 1000 feet between planes, and from 20 miles apart to 10 miles apart, or something like that. They cited that with computers and RADAR it was no longer a safety issue, but part of it was to find some way to stick more planes into the sky.

And for Urban transit, buses are on the decline, trains are on the rise. Denver is going to build 122 miles of new rail lines to serve our city by 2017, and 18 miles of dedicated bus only lanes along Highway 36.

Chicago is looking at expanding their system, as is Metra, every major city in the United States is looking to expand their passenger rail systems, or build new ones. But on the National level, little is being done. But with our current President (love or hate him) has promised to at least look into the matter. Up until Obama too the White House, Amtrak was a favorite place to cut federal spending, if they needed another million for some stupid pointless government project, take if from Amtrak's budget. GW Bush wanted to cut the funding by 60% at one time, and eliminate everything except the California Zephyr, Empire Builder, City of New Orleans, and the NEC, everything else was going to be scrapped. Thankfully Congress said no, or we would be in far worse shape.

Amtrak needs to become part 3 or our national infrastructure. Its been ignored for almost 40 years, its time to start listening to their screaming for more funding.
 
This just in:

Fresno, Calif. (KFSN) -- Governor Schwarzenegger submitted California's application for $4.7-billion dollars from the federal government to help build a high speed rail system.
The money would come from the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. It would match the money from state and local funds including the high speed rail bond passed by California voters last November.
 
It sounds like a pretty serious plan to me. SNCF have a huge amount of experience in high speed rail. If they reckon they can operate at such good returns (and they've done it before), it adds a great deal of credibility to the cause of HSR in the USA.

@Gandalf - Most of the money for a project like this would still be spent in the USA. American civil engineering companies, signalling contractors, builders etc would certainly be used. American jobs will be created running it. Alsthom (for instance) have plants in the USA. Only a relatively small proportion of the money would leave the US in profits and imports if the project is handled right. Who else in the USA has the experience? Would you rather it came in on time and budget and benefited the French as well, or play the patriotic card, and add risk to the timescales and costs, and potentially damage the future of HSR in the USA for another generation? The key to something like this is technology transfer - SNCF, or any other foreign builder needs to build up a substantial US base that employs Americans, and grows a trained, skilled workforce that can roll out HSR across the country.

As for the a trans-continental High Speed railroad? It's about 2800 miles from NY to LA. At 200mph (a pretty good average with minimal stops), thats 14 hours. It's going to take far too long to compete with air, so fares would have to be much lower. Population density between the Mid-West and California is fairly low, so there's not many folks to pick up on the way. The shorter inter-city hops are much more competitive with air travel, and so HSR can charge comparable fares (perhaps 75%). A trans-continental route would have to be a LOT cheaper to capture much traffic, and even then, it's not going to get a lot of business travellers. HSR works best with journeys in the 2-4 hour range. Much shorter, and the savings over conventional rail or driving can be small, and much longer and flying is faster. The groups of cities selected in the SNCF and other studies recognise this.

An I think the fact that CA raised $10bn in a bond issue means that the money is kind of separate from the rest of the state's woes, so it might happen even if Arnie has to borrow the fare for the inaugural ride...

Just my thoughts...

Paul
 
paulzmay,

Well said but I disagree with the implication that US companies could not do a good job just as quickly as SNCF. Aparently so does Arnold. High speed railroads are merely railroads designed for faster speeds than our current railroads. We have not built HSRs because there, until now, has been no need to. Assuming there is a need soon I am certain US companies are more than capable of handling it.
 
paulzmay,

Well said but I disagree with the implication that US companies could not do a good job just as quickly as SNCF. Aparently so does Arnold. High speed railroads are merely railroads designed for faster speeds than our current railroads. We have not built HSRs because there, until now, has been no need to. Assuming there is a need soon I am certain US companies are more than capable of handling it.

There's a bit more to it than just going faster. The French, Japanese, Germans and others have spent a long time perfecting high speed technology. Current US passenger speeds (outside the NE corridor) are lower than 100 years ago - most US development has been in the field of freight, and no-one does that better. I don't doubt that American first could do it, they would just be playing catch-up if they weren't able to leverage existing expertise in some way, and the last thing American HSR needs right now is too much learning on the job - it's got to prove that it can be delivered on time and budget first time. There's a huge advantage if existing designs and practice can simply be copied from European or Far East practice.

In any case, this plan is just a response to a call for expressions of interest. It's just by far the most detailed and comprehensive of the documents submitted. It's main interest is as a sanity check for the administration's HSR plans - if SNCF thing it's doable, it probably is, and if they think it will have such great payback, then it won't be a money pit...

So, no offence intended, I should know better than to imply that the Americans can't do everything better than everyone else with no experience ;) - exact opposite of us Brits by the way, who always assume that everyone can do everything better than us, even if we invented it (well it's true of Railways, Soccer, Cricket...).

Paul
 
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