Japan

In Trainz, everything is a computer animated illusion cartoon, there is no actual physical wear and tear, nor physical spreading of the turnout points, like on an HO train set.

A "Spring Switch" is just that, instead of solid turnout throw rod, there is a spring on the rod, that allows the greased switch points to be momentarily forced open after every flange pass's through.

In Trainz you see the railcar jump slightly

I've stopped the video and run it frame-by-frame as the train approaches a spring switch. There seems to be a bit more than a simple rod and spring. It appears there is a box at the far end of the rod which could hold a solenoid of some sort. Thanks, but I do realize that the game handles it differently.

Bill

HiBaller said:

I've stopped the video and run it frame-by-frame as the train approaches a spring switch. There seems to be a bit more than a simple rod and spring. It appears there is a box at the far end of the rod which could hold a solenoid of some sort. Thanks, but I do realize that the game handles it differently.

Bill

Click to expand...

The "pure" spring switches are mostly found in rural areas, but many other similar switches are actually "hybrids": spring-loaded switches with electric motors. I don't know the exact definition of these type of switches in English; in Italian they're a "Deviatoio Tallonabile" (trailable switch???).

In other words, when taken from the "correct" side (from the end with one track to the one with two) these types of switches behave like normal electic ones, as in they can actually switch trains, while when taken from the "opposite" end (from the one with two tracks to the other end), they'll behave like a spring-loaded switch.

Effectively, to reduce wear, tear and noise, most springs of spring-loaded switches are made to have a slow motion when returning back, as in they don't just slam the blades back to their position.

As you correctly mentioned earlier, the circurlar blue and white "S" board in fact denotes a spring loaded switch, specifically one set to a "diverge" route. The indication for a switch set to the correct route is a yellow down-poining arrow with a black band (see here). A similar setup, but without the "S" in the blue board, means that the switch is a non-spring loaded one (as seen here).

Here's a compilation of spring-loaded switches in operation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKZpYH3LmAk

And this video explains it well (including manual operation of a spring-loaded switch)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA_6HvndMP8

AlexMaria said:

I'll see what i can do... Altough usable reference images for the 2000GT seems to be quite few...

Click to expand...

i can send you the pics if you needed them?

Thanks for the extensive info, AlexMaria. I always thought the 'straight-through" route was the blue "S" (Meaning "safe") and the yellow meant it was set to diverge.

Bill

Why do most of the tracks at some switch points just end? now bumper or anything. Why not just demolish the "dead" track and loose the switch?

AlexMaria said:

The "pure" spring switches are mostly found in rural areas, but many other similar switches are actually "hybrids": spring-loaded switches with electric motors. I don't know the exact definition of these type of switches in English; in Italian they're a "Deviatoio Tallonabile" (trailable switch???).

In other words, when taken from the "correct" side (from the end with one track to the one with two) these types of switches behave like normal electic ones, as in they can actually switch trains, while when taken from the "opposite" end (from the one with two tracks to the other end), they'll behave like a spring-loaded switch.

Effectively, to reduce wear, tear and noise, most springs of spring-loaded switches are made to have a slow motion when returning back, as in they don't just slam the blades back to their position.

As you correctly mentioned earlier, the circurlar blue and white "S" board in fact denotes a spring loaded switch, specifically one set to a "diverge" route. The indication for a switch set to the correct route is a yellow down-poining arrow with a black band (see here). A similar setup, but without the "S" in the blue board, means that the switch is a non-spring loaded one (as seen here).

Here's a compilation of spring-loaded switches in operation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKZpYH3LmAk

And this video explains it well (including manual operation of a spring-loaded switch)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA_6HvndMP8

Click to expand...

I remember that spring switches* are normally found on rural lines, but as the track upgrade works began to reach the rural lines they were slowly replaced by the standard electric switch machines, as they poses several restrictions within the normal operation:

1. Train speed is heavily restricted for the switch itself, as spring switches does not allows the train to pass at speed higher than 25km/h (the spring mechanism would break if the train speed is higher than 25km/h);
2. They're only usable at rural stations on single-track lines that primarily intended for allowing exchange between two trains from both up and down directions, with each track is limited to only one direction (e.g: track #1 is for down trains only, track #2 is for up trains only);
3. Switch blades that paired with spring switches and the train wheel tends to suffer wear in a somewhat unbalanced condition, and;
4. Spring switch itself was designed for lines where the speed limit is fairly low (AFAIK under 80km/h).

Actually spring switches are categorized as part of manually-operated switch machine in Japan, because they are equipped with handles for manual operation by station staffs. But since the switch blades are connected to spring mechanism that automatically forces them to return into "correct" position a few seconds after the train wheels completely left the spring switch, they could be considered as "semi-automatic switch machine".

*Japanese called them as スプリングポイント, although they are technically written in kanji as 発条転轍器 (which is read as "hatsujou tentetsu-ki", if rendered in hiragana it is written as はつじょうてんてつき).

Regards,

Arya.

Railshuttle said:

Why do most of the tracks at some switch points just end? now bumper or anything. Why not just demolish the "dead" track and loose the switch?

Click to expand...

Think of the track stubs as a runaway truck ramp in the mountains. If a truck loses its brakes, it can divert into a long stretch of loose gravel and come to a (hopefully) safe stop. This is the same principle. I wonder if the switch mechanism is train driver controlled, or if someone at a station has to throw the switch.

Bill

Oh so they are to used to stop runaway trains. That's gotta be super rare in Japan. My guess is that if such a thing happens, the dispatcher would alert the station agents or tower control and they would throw the switch.

HiBaller said:

I was looking for pictures or specifications for Japanese switch stands. I've been watching lots of YouTube train ride videos and kept seeing odd-looking switch stands. I wasn't aware that in the rural areas that the use of spring switches was so extensive. On one line, the Kyushu Nichinan Line, every station had them on this mostly single-track line. When the line splits on station approach, there is a switch marked with a slashed "S" (which I took for 'spring' but am probably wrong). In any case, when the train leaves the station and rejoins the main, the switch is always set against the train, yet the driver never slows. It has to be a spring switch. I guess it's more economical to use them instead of having to switch back and forth to guide the train to the proper side of the center-track platform.

I'm experimenting with methods to create a switch that looks like a spring switch and doesn't require any operator to change it's aspect. At the moment, I'm using an invisible switch lever and looking for a static (not attached to the track) stand to simulate the switch flag.

I also didn't realize they used a lot of what I call "runaway train traps." These are simple switches marked with a variety of flags (such as "X") that run for perhaps a car length, then end in a dirt mound over the rails. There is NO track-end barrier. I have screen shot pictures.

Bill

Click to expand...

HiBaller, look at my route 'Spring Switch Demo' on the DLS, <kuid:289739:102004>. It shows three ways kemal's as_left_pr, as_right_pr, as_left, and as_right can be used to turn a switch into a spring switch: a reverse loop, a passing siding, and a wye. These four things are triggers, and trigger the switch that to throw in the direction of a train or reset the switch after/when it passes over them.

HiBaller said:

Think of the track stubs as a runaway truck ramp in the mountains. If a truck loses its brakes, it can divert into a long stretch of loose gravel and come to a (hopefully) safe stop. This is the same principle. I wonder if the switch mechanism is train driver controlled, or if someone at a station has to throw the switch.

Bill

Click to expand...

In Japan the basic setup for those switches would normally follows "coupled with departure signal" practice. If the signal shows "stop" aspect, the switch that leads toward track stub is set to "diverge" as its "correct" position, and it allows station staff to stop a runaway train before entering mainline track. In contrast, the switch would be set to "straight" if the signal is set to "clear", and indeed it is identified as "opposite" position on signal controller system.

Regards,

Arya.

jordon412 said:

HiBaller, look at my route 'Spring Switch Demo' on the DLS, <kuid:289739:102004>. It shows three ways kemal's as_left_pr, as_right_pr, as_left, and as_right can be used to turn a switch into a spring switch: a reverse loop, a passing siding, and a wye. These four things are triggers, and trigger the switch that to throw in the direction of a train or reset the switch after/when it passes over them.

Click to expand...

Ah, so. Cool! I'll check it out right now.

Bill

aryadwi_ef641030 said:

In Japan the basic setup for those switches would normally follows "coupled with departure signal" practice. If the signal shows "stop" aspect, the switch that leads toward track stub is set to "diverge" as its "correct" position, and it allows station staff to stop a runaway train before entering mainline track. In contrast, the switch would be set to "straight" if the signal is set to "clear", and indeed it is identified as "opposite" position on signal controller system.

Regards,

Arya.

Click to expand...

That makes perfect sense. So, in effect, it is automated and tied in with the signalling system. I'll take a look at those videos again and run some slow-motion views to see if I can spot the points on the stub track moving.

Bill

(beware of large image)



This is an example of derailer switch formerly used by Hakone Tozan Railway at Kazamatsuri station before 2006 (the year when standard gauge operation of Hakone Tozan Railway from Hakone-Yumoto to Odawara was discontinued, replaced by through-trains using Odakyu Electric Railway's 1067mm fleet). While the switch itself is technically a dual gauge derailer switch, it is coupled with departure signal as a measurement to prevent any runaway trains from entering mainline tracks if there is another train coming from opposite direction, hence the switch machine for this derailer switch is the electric ones (as it could be electrically connected to the main circuit of departure signal). However, the most dangerous disadvantage of this method is if the signal operator mistakenly operates the switch under the assumption that "there would be another train from opposite direction" (while actually no trains from opposite direction would come into the station at the time when the switch is operated) it would cause a fatal accident, especially if train driver does not realize about the mistake done by signal operator. This happens with Sangi Railway's 851 series #851F that suffers accident on November 8th, 2012 at Misato Station, when it slams into buffer stop after the signal operator made a mistake like mentioned above (and it causes the driver to not realize that the signal operator has done a fatal mistake).

Regards,

Arya.

Thanks, Arya. I can see in the picture that apparently the departure signal is red as the switch seems to be set to 'derail". There aren't any gaps in the frogs at the top of the picture though. This would not be a clean derail then as the left rail would be destroyed by the flanges from the right wheels as they pass though those frogs. So, when the signal turns green, this switch would be thrown and allow a smooth departure. At any other time, the train would derail.

Interesting concept, but as you say, it can be dangerous if an operator isn't paying attention.

Bill

Yeah, it's true. While not paying attention is a "must-not-happen" regardless of what concept used for preventing collision on mainline tracks, the concept for coupling departure signal and derailer switch itself is also prone to danger if operator fails to pay attention when operating signals and switches. Especially for the picture mentioned above: since it was a dual gauge derailer switch, it even requires more attention, as signal operators had to ensure that both standard gauge trains of Hakone Tozan Railway and 1067mm trains of Odakyu could safely pass the derailer switch without being accidentally directed into derailer track (though the ones at Kazamatsuri station were abolished and converted to a normal 1067mm derailer switch in 2006, as the 1435mm track was pushed back into Iriuda station and 1435mm trains of Hakone Tozan Railway starts at Hakone-Yumoto instead of Odawara).

Cheers,

Arya.

Yes, "trap points" are always connected to the starting signal. The point is actually set to the "derail" track all the time - they're only changed when a train is about to depart.

Still, the trap points, ever since the introduction of ATC and ATS systems have fell out of use (take a look, for example, on railway line built from 1970s onwards - trap point are very scarce). They're practically a left-over from the days of non-continuous-brake trains, where trap points were mainly built and used to prevent an out-of-control, unbraked single wagon (rather than a full train) from entering the mainline.

Today, trap points are still used in a similar way, but with maintainance vehicles and carts instead, wich aren't equipped with ATS or are too light to be detected by the block system.

Very interesting. I didn't know about it. Also saw some of those 'dead ends' in Japanese Train video's now I know.

In the game, however, to "fake" a trap point, you'd have to put an invisible "end of track" marker at the end of the rails UNLESS you faked the whole trap point using invisible track running right through the switch under what looks like the real thing.

Bill

Is there any plans about a Regauged version of Kenichiro's DD51? Since, his model is set at standard gauge not 1067mm (42in) gauge. The prototypical DD51 is 1067mm gauge.