Trainz Plus Alpha Release

Hi Tony, WindWalkr --

Going back to your Post #55 (WindWalkr):

"Additionally, where a T:ANE-era route might have relied heavily on ground textures, as of TRS19 we've been pushing the use of Clutter and TurfFX for detailed ground cover rather than relying on texturing. Routes which use these technologies appropriately simply don't require the same number of unique textures, as the textures are merely there to form the base layer and not the entirety of the result."

Now, that is very interesting. Mainly because that is what I have been doing with most of my later layouts. I've always tried to use a limited number of textures and I've cut back even more once I became more confident in using TurfFX and now Clutter Effects. If you strip out both as in the images in my Post #26 you will see how much it depends on TurfFX to give the desired result.

Generally I use an overall base layer. Then a darker texture for the re-entrants (valleys, gulleys). Two or three additional textures close to the track and a couple or so more in urban areas. And maybe a darker green texture under trees. Add in three or four TurfFX grass effects. And finally Cluster Effects flowers. The overall result looks like this ("Hoofhearted & Smelz", TRS22, on the DLS):



This is "work in progress":



However strip out the TrufFX and the Cluster Effects and it does look very bland.

Doing it this way does, of course, also hide the jagged of the 10m grid. Which makes me question, at least to some extent, the need for HD grid? But hey, I have to admit that the HD grid does look so much better on a bare boned layout. It just requires a different technique and a lot more care.

Phil

There is documentation for most of these features but it is hard to find without a link which Tony supplied earlier in this thread. Here is the Color Effect Layer page for a before and after image.

https://docs.trainzsimulator.com/docs/color-effect-layer

In regards the Living Railway, i cannot get anything to work as described in the online info page.

On top of that, half the time i start the Alpha, it freezes up solid and requires a ctrl+alt+del.

This never happens With Plus 22 full version or any earlier versions of Trainz.

Mike.

Smoothspline /HD


Made a new route and set it to HD
Placed 3 track parts (buit-in procedural) in a curve
Lifted the middle track part 9m
Used smooth spline on the track to have the terrain make a ramp
for some reason the result is kind off the same as if done on a 10m grid
maybe smooth spline could be adjustable in the future
Where spine points are the terrain shows weird(unwanted) 3d meshes



@Isambard... The first post from Laurence states the Main menu is broken
there is another way to directly open a session
Open Content manager, filter on routes and sessions
find <kuid:661281:110095> 03 Dispatchin' the Action, right click and select Open.. >> Open Asset in Driver
wait and wait some more
Open Driver list and set all trains to Automatic Schedule

Thanks G.M. Are you saying we are only supposed to test Living Railway, on the built in route and session.

I preferred to test with something UK themed. I was trying with S&C and the ECML route.

So you are saying, i cannot do that buddy ?

Thank you,
Mike.

TLR is just in the prototype stage, think more of a proof of concept rather than anything really to be used yet. Alpha builds are by definition, incomplete and prone to crash.

You can test anything in this Alfa the more the better


For TLR to work, it needs preparation, Industries need to be configured
and you need cars configured to take the products needed,
paths need to at least be reachable for the AI (correct signaling, no junction levers missing etc.)
so Kickstarter 2 Session 03 is a good example, to see the basics in action


Passenger travel is not yet in TLR that will be stage 2 I hope

TLR works quite fine for me, tried on several older routes with a few hours play time.
The functional oddities I saw are either known things or not directly related to TLR.
I just never managed to resume a task. Pausing worked but when I want to resume it gets cancelled as it switches to "Unassigned" rather than "automatic". Maybe I do something wrong.
This might be a subject to a bug report: The windows of TLR don't get hidden when hiding the Interface (F5 key).

Maybe in future more options are available to control the tasks but we'll see.

Fixed the Alpha freezing up by disabling the loading screen. Thanks G.M. understood thanks. I did have a coal carrying consist pathed to a colliery and loading, then to a power station. Just could not work out how to get anything moving.

Yup i knew that passenger runs are not working yet, thank you.

I am aware that the Alpha is in very early days of concept, thank you wreeder. But as it is available for testing, there must be some parts of it that work

Thank you for the replies, boys.

Mike.

The HD-Grid is amazing for texturing, but will Ground-FX also become more precise?

Just could not work out how to get anything moving.

Click to expand...

Follow the troubleshooting guide - recheck each requirement - supply, demand, cars, locos, track, drivers assigned to dispatcher, TLR enabled. You can also check the logs to see if there are any hints such as "No cars to carry coal" etc.

will Ground-FX also become more precise?

Click to expand...

There will still be limitations on accuracy (adjustable to some degree based upon your data setting) but it should already be more accurate than the legacy terrain.

Tony_Hilliam said:

There will still be limitations on accuracy (adjustable to some degree based upon your data setting) but it should already be more accurate than the legacy terrain.

Click to expand...

Hm, don't really notice that big of a difference. To be honest, I'm really disappointed with that, I hate seeing stuff bleed through textures and especially laid down tracks and roads.
I was hoping we could paint grass etc. as precise as textures with that.

Thanks Tony, i believe i have all that covered. Kept it simple, two industries dependant on each other. One consist with necessary rollingstock and loco.

Which loads at the first industry but just sits there and does not supply the second industry. LR is enabled, auto dispatching is enable.

Mike.

We're still on a short break so I'll reply in bulk:

[FONT=&quot]With that said, the 16-color texture limit is a no go because if the texture is already covered with the map, how are we supposed to then texture the surface?

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If you use a third-party tool which generates a 10m grid with a lot more than 16 textures per baseboard, then you're going to need to either (1) ask the tool author for help, or (2) replace the textures BEFORE converting to HD.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]I will not be able to convert my Large Route to HD, even just a few small areas as the Route, the file size goes up from 800mb to over 2.2 Terabytes and the save to .cdp is no longer possible as the Route (Map) size is to large.

Click to expand...

Obviously this is a problem for exporting a large route to CDP, and doesn't actually prevent you from converting the route. I don't know your specific use-case, so I can only give you some general suggestions:
* If you're exporting to CDP for personal storage or person-to-person distribution, you have the alternative of using plan files instead.
* If you're exporting to CDP for DLS distribution, and it's a serious effort, then you might consider uploading via TCCP instead. While that system is primarily designed for payware, we can and do use it for distributing freeware packages. There's a little more effort involved here, but the end result is better for the end user and you don't run into the CDP file size limits. I'll reiterate that this is for serious route-building efforts only; bulk-importing a 2TB DEM route and attempting to have it distributed through TCCP unmodified is likely to waste a bunch of your time and just end in the attempt being denied. Talk to the N3V content guys first if you have any questions or concerns.
* MPS is also going to be an option.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Showstoppers I see sofar:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]-increased file size, more than 6x

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You've said that's compared to 10m, so obviously less significant when compared to 5m. However you're absolutely correct that the file size is larger.


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[/FONT][FONT=&quot]--means slower loading and saving

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[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
I'm not so sure that this is accurate. Are you actually saying that you're finding it slower in practice, or are you jumping to conclusions based on the file size?

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]-still stretched textures (textures look better when perpendicular to the surface)

Click to expand...

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
This is definitely on the cards to investigate. We have some ideas on how to improve this. I don't have a timeline for this though.

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[/FONT][FONT=&quot]However strip out the TrufFX and the Cluster Effects and it does look very bland.

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This is self-obvious I assume the only reason that you'd turn those off is because your computer is so old that the small amount of extra load moves the game from "slow" to "unusable". I doubt that we'll keep these as an toggle-able option for too much longer.

The one real gotcha here is that TurfFX is Windows-only. We have a plan to address that in a future release.


[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Doing it this way does, of course, also hide the jagged of the 10m grid. Which makes me question, at least to some extent, the need for HD grid?

Click to expand...

That really depends on your layout. There may be cases where it is desirable to have bare ground visible (eg. exposed rock faces, dirt, gravel) and where those areas are not flat. Your route may feature cuttings or other ground features where the 5m grid is simply insufficient. You may use the ground detail in creative ways (eg. ballast?) to achieve results that previously required custom geometry. Your route may have bare ground visible in the distance beyond the coverage range of the clutter/turf. I think that routes where the ground is truly invisible to the user are likely rare.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Today I tried to create an automatic session using the kickstarter county route; just 4 trains automated by the living railroad. I found two major troubles with it: 1)the AIs invariably choose the shortest route even if this is already occupied by another AI and there is a free and usable parallel track...

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Obviously very early days at this point, and I should stress that our current focus with TLR is on the broader management aspects and not on "improving AI". It's clear that relying on the AI so heavily can expose weaknesses, and we're going to have to spend some time reviewing various use-cases to see what can be improved, but this is going to be a long-running process and not something that will necessarily make it into a given Trainz Plus release.

I would equally say that realistic AI operation is partially dependant on the route creator providing appropriate hints to the AI. Adding priority markers, AI direction markers, and so on can certainly help with this. Techniques such as Interlocking Towers can also help avoid deadlocks.
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2) if the player intervenes by suspending the automatic task to unblock the situation when the "resume schedule" option is selected, the convoy in question becomes "not assigned" and the player must manually reassign it to automatic management.

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[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
This UX is a bit of a work-in-progress currently. We're in the midst of trialing different solutions for how best to hand control between players and the TLR automated dispatch. Expect this to improve in future builds.

chris

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WindWalkr said:

We're still on a short break so I'll reply in bulk:



If you use a third-party tool which generates a 10m grid with a lot more than 16 textures per baseboard, then you're going to need to either (1) ask the tool author for help, or (2) replace the textures BEFORE converting to HD.

Click to expand...

In other words Tough Luck - we ain't gonna budge. And Tony has already said that N3V don't share their file formats for various reasons, so how are people like Roland (GeoPhil) supposed to help? 20 years+ and still no support for DEM - shocking !! Is it to difficult for you? To costly? Or just the case of we've given you tools to sculpt landscape already.

Come on Tony you can do this, you guys have the talent.

johnarran said:

In other words Tough Luck - we ain't gonna budge. And Tony has already said that N3V don't share their file formats for various reasons, so how are people like Roland (GeoPhil) supposed to help? 20 years+ and still no support for DEM - shocking !! Is it to difficult for you? To costly? Or just the case of we've given you tools to sculpt landscape already.

Come on Tony you can do this, you guys have the talent.

Click to expand...

This is alpha?

Don't be fooled. This is the product; This is the way they work. The work is already done and now they push it on us to "test" for release sooner rather than later. This was the same with many things we've encountered so far that never get fixed. There's never any thought outside of the box, no thought on impact of changes, announcements or statements regarding changes unless pushed, etc.

Worked on a project for decades? New version comes along and craps all over it. We fix, we repair, we go on. That cycle repeats, rinses out, and repeats except now it's getting a bit tiresome, annoying, and more difficult to get past. There's no consideration for what the user/customer/supporters have done except for those who are willing to upload for profit.

With the EGA colors we're, stepping way back rather than moving forward. All the fancy grass carpets, oversized flowers and weeds, and rocks, and rainbow smear won't fill in the depth.

With the overly complicated S20 interface, with difficult to access tools, the route building process is more complex, meaning only a handful of "professionals" will build routes while the rest of the users can twiddle around and struggle. What used to be an easy-to-use program is worse to use than some of the complex 3d modelers. Yes, I have used it and I have used 3ds Max, World Builder, and other 3d programs.

The new water is like dealing with marshmallow fluff and totally useless. Mark my words, 5 years from now it won't be fixed just like the rest of the Turf-FX tools.

With lack of support for DEMs, without stripping textures, meaning the inability to use real world maps on top of current terrain imported from previous projects, and the lack of support for third-party developers, means that Trainz has become a toy just like Minecraft and Lego World instead of a program that hobbyists enjoyed.

Where does 16 textures come into using Transdem? maps which I would think most are going to use are black and white or close to, historical maps tend not to have colours, as for Transdem specific textures there are only 20 used. and it's only 16 per board, not per route. To much assumption going on here IMO, I would think having the Colour Effects Layer and being able to apply with a brush would maybe compensate for the restriction in texture numbers?
What is very noticeable is the need for ground textures not to appear tiled, a lot of the new pbr textures are appearing as tiled and are way out of scale! I have never seen cliffs like the cliff textures in the alpha!
Go over 16 textures and they just won't apply, had to test it ;o)

I think we have more than enough clues over the last few years that we were going to get a game changer for a future version at some point. I'm not going to start running the Alpha down yet while it is still very much a WIP

This is alpha?

Don't be fooled. This is the product; This is the way they work.

Click to expand...

Let's compare build 120225 with the official release and see whether you're right or not. I know the answer already. but I'm happy to wait for you to see the improvements.

Worked on a project for decades? New version comes along and craps all over it.

Click to expand...

No - just continue using the version you began building in. In most cases, we aim for backwards compatibility and in some cases there have to be tradeoffs to move forward. It's simply not possible to have unlimited textures along with unlimited polygons so the choice is to use HD or not (It isn't compulsory, even in S20).

With the overly complicated S20 interface, with difficult to access tools

Click to expand...

Can you provide specific examples. It's different, but once you understand the differences, it becomes easier and more powerful. Group selection, scrapbooks, filtering selections, there are numerous example where S20 is easier.

The new water is like dealing with marshmallow fluff and totally useless.

Click to expand...

I don't follow the analogy here and again, the process is different to legacy water, but you can just as easily make lakes and rivers with water effects. Again, please provide specific examples of where you are hitting hurdles that you can't get over.

With the EGA colors we're, stepping way back rather than moving forward

Click to expand...

I assume you mean colour tinting? I don't follow how or why it's a step back. Please explain.

High expectation s for alpha testing

Tony_Hilliam said:

Let's compare build 120225 with the official release and see whether you're right or not. I know the answer already. but I'm happy to wait for you to see the improvements.


No - just continue using the version you began building in. In most cases, we aim for backwards compatibility and in some cases there have to be tradeoffs to move forward. It's simply not possible to have unlimited textures along with unlimited polygons so the choice is to use HD or not (It isn't compulsory, even in S20).


Can you provide specific examples. It's different, but once you understand the differences, it becomes easier and more powerful. Group selection, scrapbooks, filtering selections, there are numerous example where S20 is easier.


I don't follow the analogy here and again, the process is different to legacy water, but you can just as easily make lakes and rivers with water effects. Again, please provide specific examples of where you are hitting hurdles that you can't get over.


I assume you mean colour tinting? I don't follow how or why it's a step back. Please explain.

Click to expand...

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It seems to me that there is a very high expectation for results of what is after all an Alpha testing regime. I have been involved with similar level testing for many years, and with the increasing complexity of software development, one should think of Alpha tests as a very early first time test. The original notes from N3V gave several warnings and suggestions on what to try, seems some have forgotten that advice.

I know from personal experience, Alpha testing can be very trying. Remember the original years for TRAINZ was done by a very small team, and yes, some bugs for early versions did result in many bugs not being addressed, but the version I am using Trains Plus is overall very stable, and at least as good as other similar simulator Software.

Once testing has been thru several test phases, that is the time to report the bugs with great detail so the team can respond. If insufficient details on your process that found the bug are included, it makes the diagnosis rather difficult for developers.

I congratulate those who have freely involved themselves in the Alpha testing and hope eventually the results will warrant the time testers have invested.

Similar for me, I'm working a lot with our test team department (actually worked there and my part was taking care of the test documentation tool which is just one aspect the software deals with). Now I switched one department, we kind of make our own coding for things the real business people in other department might need - aside the real IT folks which can be ... difficult if they sit in India and have no clue about our business processes. We know the business, we know the tool, we are just no real programmers but we can do a lot small things that helps our business to off-load tasks and therefore gives them time. Our main tasks is to verify that the programs work as they should when they come from IT and are ready for test. There are too many cases we have to reject the work, the main point is that not business does those test but we, only when we think it works like it should, we hand it to business for final test (and they always find something but the key is that you don't hand them something that just wastes their time).*

We are used to work with bugs, analyze them as much as we can (in Prod, Test and occasionally in Dev environments), and we learn a lot. And in short - I love my job.

Always keep in mind, this is Alpha. This is not even in test environment stage, it is still part of development phase. I am here voluntary because I applied. In most software project you only get to see the final product but not the pain (and joy) that appears when making it. Now I can be part of the creation process. Yay! My share is - I like it to try out new things. Especially if they come right from the devs. And when you were not involved in the design phase - it's always full of surprises! I can't say much to all the DEM-or route building things, but for TLR it's in a pretty nice shape in my view for the parts subject to this test.



*I not want to sound negative, the programmers do a really good job in taken into account they barely know the software, the processes business does and the complexity if the internals. There are just too many other things aside that that simply makes it hard to work that way but that topic is not for this thread.