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Thread: ULTRA-DETAILED TERRAIN

  1. #31
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    Tony,
    As the ultra res terrain seems a complex and big change, timeframe has to be unknown. My main question is how is DEM data going to be handled? Current tools operate with high resolution DEM data, however they have to export to Trainz using lower resolution. Will there be a intermediate Trainz ground format that 3rd parties can manipulate and is documented?
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by capdiamont View Post
    Tony,
    As the ultra res terrain seems a complex and big change, timeframe has to be unknown. My main question is how is DEM data going to be handled? Current tools operate with high resolution DEM data, however they have to export to Trainz using lower resolution. Will there be a intermediate Trainz ground format that 3rd parties can manipulate and is documented?
    I was wondering about that too, but as you noted, there is no timeframe on this, and anything can happen in between. There's also the possibility that lower resolution terrain can be imported and then tessellated as needed, which means that the current DEM files supplied by the National Geologic Survey map servers can be processed as they are through TransDEM. Ideally, if Dr. Ziegler could do this internally in the program, then we could have a direct import.
    John
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  3. #33
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    I think the current DEM process will continue to work, however we can’t take advantage of the increased resolution until software is updated or Trainz can directly import DEM data. There is a lot of complexity to DEM data though.
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  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by capdiamont View Post
    and yet you have 19, 22 and Trainz plus.

    Buying those was a bad and pricey decision . Will cancel my Trainz Plus subscription after the one year ended .

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinorius_Redundicus View Post
    Will the new terrain allow the sculpting of overhanging cliffs, caves or true tunnels (ie. tunnels without digholes)?
    That would be quite an accomplishment. Somehow you'd have to store multiple Z values (altitude) at the same X,Y coordinate. (And tell the program which side is air and which is solid.) I don't know of a simple way to do that. It would be a neat feature though!

    Edit:
    I guess that I should add that the higher definition terrain looks impressive. It will be interesting to see how the surveyor tools interact with higher def terrain. I wonder about file sizes though. I already consider resulting file sizes when I import terrain with a 5m grid vs the 10m grid.
    Last edited by OddRails; September 12th, 2022 at 01:14 PM.
    Dave

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by OddRails View Post
    That would be quite an accomplishment. Somehow you'd have to store multiple Z values (altitude) at the same X,Y coordinate. (And tell the program which side is air and which is solid.) I don't know of a simple way to do that. It would be a neat feature though!

    Edit:
    I guess that I should add that the higher definition terrain looks impressive. It will be interesting to see how the surveyor tools interact with higher def terrain. I wonder about file sizes though. I already consider resulting file sizes when I import terrain with a 5m grid vs the 10m grid.

    Well even the simplest 3D creation program can do cliffs, caves, tunnels etc. It’s all just XYZ vertices and the use of normal vectors to distinguish outside from inside. So maybe it’s like that.

    As for finer resolution without blowing the file size budget, I would imagine it requires a complete change in the way the terrain is created and how its data is stored. I’ve heard the term “procedural terrain” mentioned but I don’t really know what it means. Perhaps its a form of data compression based on a set of equations for the topology rather than a huge table of XYZ coordinates. Non-expert speculation makes everything seem possible and easy. I should work in the Marketing department.

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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by wreeder View Post
    TransDEM already deals internally with higher resolution than current Trainz maps but N3V would have to share the details of the format of the new grid system for TransDEM to output in that format.
    N3V back in the day must have shared the details of their route terrain file system with the author of TransDEM, so it's likely they would do so again.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinorius_Redundicus View Post
    Well even the simplest 3D creation program can do cliffs, caves, tunnels etc. It’s all just XYZ vertices and the use of normal vectors to distinguish outside from inside. So maybe it’s like that.

    As for finer resolution without blowing the file size budget, I would imagine it requires a complete change in the way the terrain is created and how its data is stored. I’ve heard the term “procedural terrain” mentioned but I don’t really know what it means. Perhaps its a form of data compression based on a set of equations for the topology rather than a huge table of XYZ coordinates. Non-expert speculation makes everything seem possible and easy. I should work in the Marketing department.

    .
    Procedural Terrain is used in Unity could be similar to this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64NblGkAabk

    Could be Nvidia's method? https://developer.nvidia.com/gpugems...ains-using-gpu
    Malc


  9. #39
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    Definitely not the Unity type of terrain. It’s essentially the same as existing Trainz terrain which cannot do caves, tunnels or even vertical cliffs or overhangs.

    The ingenious nVidia method, based on voxels, can do all the things I mentioned and is fast because it uses the GPU. Laughing because I remember when voxels were just dumpy British family cars.


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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinorius_Redundicus View Post
    Definitely not the Unity type of terrain. It’s essentially the same as existing Trainz terrain which cannot do caves, tunnels or even vertical cliffs or overhangs.

    The ingenious nVidia method, based on voxels, can do all the things I mentioned and is fast because it uses the GPU. Laughing because I remember when voxels were just dumpy British family cars.


    .
    I'm inclined to think it will be the nvidia method, given we already have TurfFx from them.
    Malc


  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinorius_Redundicus View Post
    Well even the simplest 3D creation program can do cliffs, caves, tunnels etc. It’s all just XYZ vertices and the use of normal vectors to distinguish outside from inside. So maybe it’s like that.
    I hadn't thought of that. Thanks
    Dave

  12. #42
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    Sorry no overhangs (3D modelling is quite different to terrain data). Steep cliffs will be possible since you won't be stretching a 5m grid to 50m height, but just how it all plays out is still being worked on. Things like texturing and tessellation and whether we limit the brush radius etc. There will also be texture limitations (much more so on DX11 cards than DX12).
    Tony Hilliam

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  13. #43
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    This makes me believe that the limitation of only the height of a vertex changing remains in place but with a grid resolution of 0.125 of a meter or 4.92125984 inches per grid square. That is very interesting as perhaps fine textures may be at last possible. No more pebbles being a foot wide. I'm not troubled by not having overhangs as you have rock objects for that now. What excites me the most is the possibility of having a track travel across a slope without the ledge being two grid squares wide. Even with the 5m grid the smallest possible shelf is 32.808399 feet wide which is more than twice as wide as the prototype would be and even then you are left with the zipper teeth effect if the path of the shelf is not in alignment with the grid lines.

  14. #44
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    What excites me the most is the possibility of having a track travel across a slope without the ledge being two grid squares wide. Even with the 5m grid the smallest possible shelf is 32.808399 feet wide which is more than twice as wide as the prototype would be and even then you are left with the zipper teeth effect if the path of the shelf is not in alignment with the grid lines.
    You bet - this, along with performance improvements [in most cases].
    Tony Hilliam

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  15. #45
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    Good deal. Perhaps the most significant change to Trainz ever.

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