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Thread: TRS22 is fine

  1. #1
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    Default TRS22 is fine

    Right, so I know that this will probably cause some arguments with some Trainz users, but let me just get this out of the way - I have no problem with TRS22. Though my favorite Trainz game will always be T:ANE, I have no problem with TRS22 and am satisfied with it as a customer. Even with its lack of major new features, I am fine with the overall package.

    Now, you could argue that TRS22 is not as big of a package as previous versions, as every version from TS2009 onwards offered a massive new feature over the previous game. TS2009 introduced a major overhaul to the game engine, TS2010 introduced my favorite rendition of the menu in any Trainz game, TS12 introduced Multiplayer, T:ANE introduced a brand new game engine and is the ultimate development in versions of Trainz using the "classic" lighting engine, and TRS19 introduced the most major overhaul to the lighting engine and user interface since 2001. And TRS22? Its main new feature is probably Multiplayer Surveyor, but is largely still in a Beta form, since you can only access two routes and use only assets built into the game. There is also something that you could argue is a new feature for TRS22, and that's the many ways you can buy it.

    With TRS19, it always felt like, to me, it was just the Regional, Standard, and Platinum Editions, with Trainz+ being for those people who wanted everything. Now, with TRS22, Trainz+ has been advertised more than ever as the way to buy the game. I am not going to say it is a bad offer - in fact, I am considering either subscribing to Silver Class or to Trainz+ Standard, but not yet Gold - as you have access to the latest version of Trainz, legacy products (which I wonder, does it include games like TD2016, TMR17, TS12 and earlier versions? Or is it just T:ANE and TRS19 right now?), and access to all DLC and a FCT for as long as you have the subscription is fine. I still am not the biggest fan of DLS download speeds, but I did buy a 7-day FCT some time ago, activated it when TRS22 officially released, and downloaded thousands of assets from the DLS, so I'm fine for now, and I don't like how the latest updates to Trainz are locked behind a subscription (I'm fine with upgrading to the latest game, like TRS19 -> 22 -> 25[? - whatever the next version will be] -> etc, but not the minor patches like 117669 -> 670 -> 671 -> etc [not sure if those are/were actual Trainz+ builds, just using that as an example], as the reliance of Service Patches for updates works, but is a bit annoying), but otherwise Trainz+ makes sense as an option.

    Then there's Surveyor 2.0.

    I'm fine with it being subscription-only. I do hope that, if N3V releases TRS22 Platinum around Christmas and includes Surveyor 2.0 with the package, then those who preordered TRS22 (like me) and those who own it do get a discount code to buy the Platinum version. But right now? It seems like Surveyor 2.0 has some bugs, so I understand it not being included in the final package. Plus, with Trainz+, you have the option to pay for it, and if you're worried about bugs, you can buy TRS22 outright and keep it forever (until the DRM certs expire, but that's 99 years from now, we're fine hopefully).

    All in all, I am happy with my preorder of TRS22. Even though I did later buy TRS19 Platinum, truth be told, it was only so that I could have the content, and not because I actually wanted the game. When it was the latest version, I had just got T:ANE to work. (It's a shame that there was no SP5 patch for T:ANE with Metal support, but I don't use it anymore, so I'm fine.) Plus, it seems like SP4 and maybe SP5 introduced a lot of bugs, and even when the disaster that was TRS22 Early Access (everything was broken and nothing was working), I just barely played Trainz. Problem solved. Seriously though, I am happy with TRS22, but am not sure if I would buy a Platinum Edition. It all depends on if Surveyor 2.0 is included, and how good it is (and if Surveyor Classic will still be available in that release). I will certainly be buying future Trainz products outright, and will continue to support N3V and content creators by buying DLC, and will subscribe to one of the subscription services sometime in the probably near future. I wish N3V the best of luck, and may Trainz grow and prosper!

    (Just remember, this is my opinion - if you have a different opinion, or would like to talk about how you disagree or agree with something I've said, feel free to do so! My opinion of TRS22 is an opinion, and if you have a different opinion, that's fine by me.)

    Anyway, enjoy your day, everyone.

    Andrew
    Making incredibly slow progress on a number of Trainz routes and an LBSCR L Class. They'll come out... one day!

    Build 117654

  2. #2
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    Good summary of the product path with a bit of a correction needed. Multiplayer was introduced in TS2010 SP4 which also removed the compatibility mode so that the original billboard trees and shrubs lost their textures and turned invisible. SP3 and below had a compatibility mode in it and SP3 also fixed some glaring problems with TS2010 including the disconnecting splines from fixed-track and MO-crossing objects!

    Yes, that bug was truly the worst we've ever faced outside of the multiple CTDs we had in T: ANE. A route would be fine. Saved and closed only to have the problem the next day when the route was opened for editing in Surveyor for use in Driver. The issue was coined "Splines in Space" like Pigs in Space because the splines went off into orbit. The problem was fixable by reconnecting ends to industries if possible and then deleting or cutting splines and reconnecting them on the other end.

    For me, TRS2004 was my first and favorite version, warts and all. Maybe this is due to this being my first Trainz version and everything that went with it. The community too was different and so was the company which made this truly exciting to work with. It took to SP4 to make that a good product, but it was still fun all along the way.

    TS12 introduced a few nasty bugs, although SP0 was really the best of the bunch SP1 HF4 was the worst.

    Anyway, back to topic.

    The reason why TS22 doesn't seem like a blockbuster is much like how each version of MAC OS and Windows blends from one version to another. T: ANE, as you said introduced a new game engine, lighting, and other new ways of doing things. TRS19 improved upon that and gave us better lighting, textures, etc., and was/is what T: ANE should have been in the first place.

    TS22 actually has more going for it than just the two obvious additions of Surveyor 2.0 for Plus ATM and MPS. There are many, many bug fixes and underlying game engine improvements in the product which makes TRS22 work smoother, load quicker, and the AI work better. They still go on strike and like their hour-plus long lunches, but that's another issue. That still doesn't mean there aren't bugs in this product either and there's still plenty to fix and find.

    If you decide to become a Plus member you can participate in the testing and beta program and contribute any bugs found to the pile for future fixing. In this regard, having a closed beta is good to a point and then having a truly open beta just before product release is the way to go, but I don't run the company and that's up to Tony and management to decide how they go about it. I will admit that we're pretty picky and testy, no pun intended, and truly will not let things slide past us. This is why it takes much, much longer to release the new products than in the past.

    I don't agree with the locked down DLC, but that's up to the content-creator to decide as we saw with one of the Cornish Mainline versions. This came about because of piracy and copyright violations we've faced here in the past and as you know all it takes is a handful of bad actors to ruin everything for everyone else.
    Last edited by JCitron; July 3rd, 2022 at 12:09 PM.
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
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  3. #3
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    This is the first time I have requested a refund of a Trainz product and I'm not happy.
    I was looking forward to purchasing the UK Class 68 Diesel Class 68 TRS DRS Loco & duly ordered it.
    It simply will not install giving me all sorts of excuses regarding missing items. It gets to a certain level then bombs out on me
    Also, trying to use the help line is like one of the 12 labours of Hercules, it may be ok for a young man but for an old duffer, it's awful. Not one option i could find gave me the correct option.
    refund please. thanks, Gam

  4. #4
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    Please disregard my last post, apologies to NV3, I think I was a tad hasty and a miserable old sausage. No refund required,

  5. #5
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    I've been using TRS22 since it became available to Trainz Plus and IMO was more stable than what TRS19 is (even during a beta which is scary!) so I've moved most of my content over to the beta and continued there. S2.0 has helped with creating my current route. I've had it where Trainz 22 crashed on me and unlike TANE and TRS19 the 'always saved to the disk' never saved my progress when it crashed so I ended up having to redo the area (depending on how large the area was lost meant either redoing it within the same day or wait until the following day). TRS22 'always saved to the disk' has saved my areas with once in a while minor details weren't saved which are quick to recover so I can finish my area within the same day.
    I've talked to N3V about that and they said send a bug report but when you have no idea on how to reproduce the issue as its random a bug report won't do any good...

    So that's the product side from my view. TCCP on the other hand has been a mess since TRS22 which I'm not 100% happy about. Had to talk to N3V about this to get some detailed responses. Would've been nice if N3V adds those detailed responses along with examples to the documentation on the TCCP site...
    Overall once everything is figured out I think TRS22 will be an excellent game. During the betas I was enjoying it

    Cheers

    NARM's site^

    My personal site: https://hiawathamr.weebly.com/​

  6. #6
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    I really was surprised when I saw how stable the Beta was, I must admit! I honestly think that N3V should've just made it the official release, as it would've fit in mych better as the 20th anniversary edition of Trainz. I didn't like the Early Access at all, though, as it forced me to stop using Trainz entirely - even KSC2 and the Content Samples routes were broken! But now, with the official release here, TRS22 is a good game. I hope that, if N3V decides to release a Platinum edition, they do something similar to T:ANE and just add additional content, and not lock Surveyor 2.0 behind it... though, if that happens, shouldn't current TRS22 owners get a discount code for the Platinum edition if it exists?

    Regardless, I am happy with TRS22, and still don't really get all the fuss of no Surveyor 2.0 with the full product - N3V isn't making an effort to hide that, and they clearly state that you must pay to access it. Whatever. It'll come in a full version eventually.
    Making incredibly slow progress on a number of Trainz routes and an LBSCR L Class. They'll come out... one day!

    Build 117654

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by SRKing783 View Post
    I really was surprised when I saw how stable the Beta was, I must admit! I honestly think that N3V should've just made it the official release, as it would've fit in mych better as the 20th anniversary edition of Trainz. I didn't like the Early Access at all, though, as it forced me to stop using Trainz entirely - even KSC2 and the Content Samples routes were broken! But now, with the official release here, TRS22 is a good game. I hope that, if N3V decides to release a Platinum edition, they do something similar to T:ANE and just add additional content, and not lock Surveyor 2.0 behind it... though, if that happens, shouldn't current TRS22 owners get a discount code for the Platinum edition if it exists?

    Regardless, I am happy with TRS22, and still don't really get all the fuss of no Surveyor 2.0 with the full product - N3V isn't making an effort to hide that, and they clearly state that you must pay to access it. Whatever. It'll come in a full version eventually.
    With early access stuff, I always setup a duplicate database and do my testing with that rather than anything in my working copy of Trainz and data. The reason is in case something goes deeply bad and sometimes does, I won't lose years and years of work put in on routes and my content that I've collected over the years. It's also good to have backups as well as a precaution because computers can eat data for dinner.

    Just before the release, I was doing all my work in TRS22 and gave that version a full test by doing my usual of nearly a day of Trainzing. By a day of Trainzing I mean running the game from noon to midnight if not longer as I edit, drive, download, modify, cyclically throughout the day. During this test, I had no crashes at all, and the performance was just as good in the end as it was in the beginning. For the most part, TRS22 has proven to be a solid product. This is a far cry from products we had in the past.

    I don't get the fuss either.
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
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  8. #8
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    People always want to compare a newly released product with those that have already been through a full rigor of bug fixes and polish of early titles. That being said I think that TS22 is a well released and stable version that is a good foundation, cant wait to see where the product ends up. If you want a lackluster product look at the Trainz Classic series. Those were TRS2006 with less content and basically one route included.

  9. #9
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    John - thanks for informing me on that. Now, would duplicating databases work when newer versions of Trainz come out, so I don't have to redownlod everything?

    Hert - that is true, though TC3 definitely had some worth if it is still consistently being sold and the Settle & Carlisle pack is still available as DLC for TANE onwards. My thought.
    Making incredibly slow progress on a number of Trainz routes and an LBSCR L Class. They'll come out... one day!

    Build 117654

  10. #10
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    About TRS22:
    I guess it was either just a Mac version issue or your luck was just against you. Those problems you reported over the beta period I didn't ran into any. I guess the Windows version was just more stable back then (shrugs).
    lol for sure! The beta was so stable that N3V should've made it official. I'm surprised they didn't but oh well. At least the beta was stable enough to move over. Of course I didn't upgrade my content build version of TRS22 when every update became available as I don't want a buggy game to deal with so I basically waited until it was officially released before updating from the beta version.
    As for the PE version, who knows. IIRC it was a year later before the TRS19 PE version became available so it might follow the same path once N3V has more features they want to release for TRS22.

    ----

    About TC:
    Trainz Classics were also like paid service packs as well hence why they didn't make it even at deeptly cheap prices.
    TC 1&2 had so little content that the publisher (at least USA / NA) combined both 1&2 into one product.

    Yes, TC3 had like the very first version of Settle & Carlisle, then came the TS2009 version one that was updated and expanded a bit and now the TANE version that was updated more.

    Cheers

    NARM's site^

    My personal site: https://hiawathamr.weebly.com/​

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by SRKing783 View Post
    John - thanks for informing me on that. Now, would duplicating databases work when newer versions of Trainz come out, so I don't have to redownlod everything?
    Find your data directory and copy that to a known location as the backup. You can copy that to a different location to use with other versions.
    Trainz 2022 on Ventura. M1 Macs
    T Driver 3 iPhone SE2 iOS16

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by SRKing783 View Post
    John - thanks for informing me on that. Now, would duplicating databases work when newer versions of Trainz come out, so I don't have to redownlod everything?

    Hert - that is true, though TC3 definitely had some worth if it is still consistently being sold and the Settle & Carlisle pack is still available as DLC for TANE onwards. My thought.
    It sure does work. You use point the program to the new database in the Trainz settings on the Launcher under install tab.

    Restart as required, and if you've got things connected, you'll login to the "new" database automatically as before. You only need to be careful you don't start the wrong version, and for that I'll change the icon to something else and sometimes change the splash screen which you can edit easily - it's only a .png file.
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
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  13. #13
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    Oh, nice. Thanks for letting me know about that! That'll definitely come in handy with future versions of Trainz.

    A bit off topic, but still a question I have - is 1 TB enough for installs of TANE, TRS19, Platinum and a full database for TRS22 enough? I only plan on having the DLC for those games downloaded for the earlier versions for right now, but TRS22's database takes up 200 GB on my drive, so that's why I'm wondering, since Trainz has always been the largest app on my computer and phone.
    Making incredibly slow progress on a number of Trainz routes and an LBSCR L Class. They'll come out... one day!

    Build 117654

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by SRKing783 View Post
    Oh, nice. Thanks for letting me know about that! That'll definitely come in handy with future versions of Trainz.

    A bit off topic, but still a question I have - is 1 TB enough for installs of TANE, TRS19, Platinum and a full database for TRS22 enough? I only plan on having the DLC for those games downloaded for the earlier versions for right now, but TRS22's database takes up 200 GB on my drive, so that's why I'm wondering, since Trainz has always been the largest app on my computer and phone.
    That should work okay. My complete database is only 2TB with everything I have and that's a lot of content including all the DLC, my routes, and tons of assets. I do go through a cleaning spree and delete backups, which you can cut to the minimum in the settings, but I don't do that and prune them myself and recently deleted 25 GB of old content I haven't touched in 16 years. Most of it was stuff I downloaded while looking for dependencies from various websites. I have that backed up anyway, so if I really want it, I can get it anyway.
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
    Trainz User ID: 124863
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  15. #15
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    I agree with the OP. Overall, I am very happy with TRS22Plus. UDS is great, although I had to read the tutorials first. And the capabilities of Surveyor 2.0 (my favorites: Large brush size for large-scale terraforming, object/spline group moves and rotations) allow me to do tasks in route creation not feasible before because they were too time-consuming. Yes, there are some bug fixes still to be done, one of which I reported.

    Before going with TRS22Plus, I was using an early version of TRS19. and I would have crash to desktops simply when moving around the route using the right mouse button. Since TRS22Plus, no CTDs. Thank you N3V.

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