An Open Letter to N3V

"No one asked for x" = "I didn't ask for x, and either am ignoring or don't remember the users that did, and instead here's the features I wanted that haven't been added".

Sorry if that's a callous way of putting it but it's really what some of y'all sound like. I've gained a lot more respect for what we do have after Tony revealed a in a thread a couple weeks ago that N3V has three (THREE!) programmers. If I know the slightest thing about programming, that's a tiny team for a game with the graphical level and complexity of Trainz. Sure, there are plenty of things I'm not happy about and wish were in the sim. There are plenty of features that have been added that I don't care about what-so-ever (notably ANYTHING do to with multiplayer). But as lacking as I find Trainz sometimes, exactly zero of the alternatives provide anything close to the experience that I want.

Business websites seem to estimate that N3V has between 25-30 employees total. Perhaps someone can confirm if that's accurate. The same websites estimate Dovetail (of Train Simulator/Train Sim World) as having 180. Approximately six times as many. Just by virtue of that, Trainz is probably never going to have the level of outward "polish"/advanced environmental physics/graphical simulation/etc. that those games have. That's not intended to be a dig at Trainz (and I'm sorry if it comes off that way). It's just reality. But ultimately, when forced to choose between that polish and the more open-ended-ness of Trainz, I know where I'm going to land.

G.M. said:

Development time...
No-one asked to remove Railyard (TANE)
No-one asked for PBrized grid with fake buttons (19)
No-one asked for Undo to be hidden in a menu (19SP1)
No-one asked for bookmarks to be combined with asset filters (19SP1)
No-one asked for a new map to be a green carpet (19SP4)
No-one asked for trackmarks triggers etc to be PBRized (19SP5)

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I didn't actually realise anybody cared about this sort of thing. These feel like super small complaints to go and make.

People seriously still used the railyard? Have you even seen how bad non-PBR and PBR textures blend together? PBR Grid is no problem whatsoever, and is probably a 5 minute job that you're complaining about. Learn what CTRL+Z is. Bookmarks being in the asset filters is a problem to you? Geez. Learn what the replace asset tool is, or use Surveyor 2 and use the back to grid feature...

I'm pretty sure GDennish did the trackmarks in his own free time...

I wish these were the issues that I had with Trainz, because these aren't issues.

H222 said:

People seriously still used the railyard?

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I personally would love to have a proper Railyard back. I liked it as it allowed me to pretty easily check out new content I had downloaded, or installed without the need to go all the way into a route. (I do currently have a "test" route which I use for checking things out, but it is still more of a hassle to use than Railyard was).

Yes, we have the new "My Collection" however this only gives us a static 3/4 view of the item. Being able to rotate around the content (yes you can do this in Preview); and trigger the different effects (horn, lights, bell, panto, etc) all of which you could do in Railyard would be nice to have back.

peter

If the content preview allowed you to test features of a locomotive asset (sounds, scripting features, etc) then I wouldn’t mid railyard being missing.

G.M. said:

No-one asked for trackmarks triggers etc to be PBRized (19SP5)

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As H222 said, I did this in my free time, just like the initial design for the new compass, and the updated portals. Why not give them an update when they've never been changed? Just a bit of fun.

Having just skimmed through this thread, I hope that it isn't a bother to people if I decide to throw in my two cents...

I currently run TRS22, but also bought TRS19 Platinum for the sole reason of the added content that comes with it - but hey, now I have a game that I refused to buy in my timeline! When I downloaded TRS19 Platinum just to make sure that all of the content that came with it was linked to my account, I did notice the significant differences it had with T:ANE, and in some ways, it is better... though why no Quick Drive option and no more Railyard? (Not My Collection, Railyard - where's that?)

Afterwards, I pre-ordered TRS22 and downloaded the Beta as soon as the installer was made available for Macs. When I did, I noticed the only new things were the new content. In my opinion, TRS22 is a repackaged version of TRS19 Platinum (specifically that and not the regular TRS19 as it includes all the new features with it, like Unified Driver/Surveyor and the new camera modes) just as TRS2007 was a repackaged version of TRS2006 (anyone else hear about that version? I don't own it obviously, but I do know about it). I am fine with Trainz as it is, but the fact that brand new features like Surveyor 2.0 are locked completely behind a subscription service is... I dunno. The service is fine - including an FCT, all Trainz DLC, and the latest version of Trainz for the lifetime of the subscription is a good idea. However, the fact that some features have been cut for no reason while ones that are unfortunately not used after the first week of it being out is just a bit off in my opinion.

I am incredibly proud of N3V Games and all of their hard work on Trainz, and I will continue to purchase new versions of Trainz as they come out. I will not, for the time being, spend $130 a year just to access a lot of DLC I probably will not use and beta-testing Surveyor 2.0, and that is perfectly fine. I am also not going to make fun of people who decide to subscribe to Trainz+ - if they decide that the benefits are worth the price, that is fine. I am not the biggest fan of locking features behind a subscription service like with streaming services, but I do understand having one.

I am not boycotting N3V or Trainz - again, I will continue to purchase new versions of Trainz and new bits of DLC as they come out, but I simply do not understand locking certain features behind a paywall, even if they are in a beta. There is also the issue of pricing, in my eyes. Not necessarily with Trainz+ - no, $130 a year for the latest version of Trainz and a bunch more content is fine, but I will not pay for it just yet. No, with the pricing of TRS22. $70 for TRS19 Platinum: A Lot Less Content Even Though It Is Technically Newer Edition seems a bit too much, in my opinion. I also am not very happy with the amount of errors TRS22 throws my way with content, ESPECIALLY with the Early Access. That version was incredibly buggy, and while my main complaints were thankfully resolved, some assets still do not display correctly in Driver. It's weird, but whatever. Plus, it still sometimes throws me errors with assets that worked fine in T:ANE (I barely used TRS19 outside making sure the Platinum content was linked to my account), which is very odd.

Long story short, I am fine with Trainz and the Trainz+ subscription, but some of the things that are locked behind it are questionable, and the fact that, if you cancel your subscription, you lose access to Trainz completely if you haven't bought a version from the store is a bit shady. Even if I subscribed to Trainz+, I'm still gonna buy new versions of Trainz as they come out, and while this will definitely benefit N3V, it is still an inconvenience to the customer. I wish N3V the best of luck in developing future versions of Trainz, but I do hope that the company takes the experiences of its customers and users to account when it comes to developing the next version of Trainz.

Andrew

soap__ said:

"No one asked for x" = "I didn't ask for x, and either am ignoring or don't remember the users that did, and instead here's the features I wanted that haven't been added".

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Totally agree, as well as the use of the plural "we" in "we asked for". None of the items in those two posted lists were on my "request" or "retain" lists.

pware said:

Trainz 22 does not involve an "annual fee". You can buy it outright with a single one off purchase, no further payments required. The list is almost endless. A selection from posts I have read these last few weeks:-

• more realism (what that means varies widely between groups)
• better AI
• working train timetables
• accurate sunrise/sunset times
• dispatcher control
• bring back the onscreen undo/redo buttons
• fix night lighting
• remove car horns at grade crossings
• diesel engine startups and refueling (and my personal "must have" - why not real time coal fired steam startups from a cold boiler?)

Tony recently announced that because of the take-up of Trainz Plus subscriptions he was recently able to employ two more programmers. Perhaps that is the answer.

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Like most Trainzers, I understand that it takes time & money for N3V to devolope new features and improve existing features, within the Sim.

That said, one thing that got my blood boiling quite a while ago was N3V changing the UNDO/REDO buttom in TS2019 & TS2022, to hide it in a drop down menu. When in Tane Surveyor, I would use this buttom more than twice as much as all the other buttons combined. For that reason alone, I still only "build" in Tane, not TS2019.

So as far as I am personally concerned, N3V has "taken a feature away, rather than added one" (Yes, I'm aware of a hot key option). IMHO, this was a backward step by N3V. Even tho lots of the community voiced their amazement & disapproval, N3V never listened. (Whatever happened to the customer is always right?)...

Maybe one day we might see the simple Undo/Redo button reinstalled in it's rightful place (as a button) in the left hand TOP side of Surveyor. (Boy, does that feel good getting that off my chest, again)... I was up half the night debating with me, myself & I as too whether I should post this post or not. "I" won out!!! :hehe:

Now where were we???

Cheers, Mac...

meatloaf747 said:

I was up half the night debating with me. myself & I whether to post this post or not. "I" won out!!! :hehe:

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I was in the same quandary. I wrote two long draft responses to the "we asked for" and "no-one asked" posts but abandoned both as a waste of time. This morning (local time) I was pleased to see that others had responded .

This "debate" occurs with every new version and always will.

As you observed, it is easy to be an armchair programmer and dictate what should or should not have been included.

pware said:

This "debate" occurs with every new version and always will.

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I think this is what people forget.

We've seen this with 12, 19, maybe not TANE so much. I wasn't around back then (first got Trainz in like... 2011?) but I've heard back as far as the release of TS2006 people were saying "oh, this isn't worth it, i'm not going to upgrade, etc".

It never seems to end up lasting all that long.

soap__ said:

I think this is what people forget.

We've seen this with 12, 19, maybe not TANE so much. I wasn't around back then (first got Trainz in like... 2011?) but I've heard back as far as the release of TS2006 people were saying "oh, this isn't worth it, i'm not going to upgrade, etc".

It never seems to end up lasting all that long.

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I'd agree, but for a different reason. The complaining usually stops when all the features have been fully implemented and the bugs have been ironed out. Once S20, the new waybill system, and the new terrain system are finished and make their way to standalone, the bugs fixed, and DLC completed, the complaining will surely stop.

dundun92 said:

I'd agree, but for a different reason. The complaining usually stops when all the features have been fully implemented and the bugs have been ironed out. Once S20, the new waybill system, and the new terrain system are finished and make their way to standalone, the bugs fixed, and DLC completed, the complaining will surely stop.

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Complaining will never stop, because everyome has their own agenda. What they want to see in the game as opposed to what anyone else wants. Some people are never happy and are very vocal about it, while others gratefully take what they are given and get on with it.

dundun92 said:

Once S20, the new waybill system, and the new terrain system are finished and make their way to standalone, the bugs fixed, and DLC completed, the complaining will surely stop.

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Said tongue-in-cheek I am certain.

There will always be something to complain about. As one of the founders of Auran (N3V's parent) Greg Lane once remarked "Complaints are a good sign, it means that the customers care about the product" (or words to that effect). I accept that the sometimes demanding or dictatorial tone of some complainers is a sign of the passion they feel.

If the complaints stop then it does not mean that you are doing everything right, but that you have become irrelevant.

My opinions.

I don't mean to sound so negative in my posts, and I'm sorry if that's how it sounds. I'm just disappointed like a lot of other people here, and I think some the arguments/complaints against the direction N3V are taking is justified and should be considered. I did not complain one bit when TANE and TRS19 were released. I was excited, because it brought something radically new to the table. I have complained, however at the trs22 launch as circumstances (for me) are different with S20 and the subscription. I'm not against N3V. I am for them, and I'm glad they are gaining profits. Its just the means that they have reverted to that I dislike, and cannot support at the moment.

To illustrate the main point here, the following post ..

No-one asked to remove Railyard (TANE)
No-one asked for PBrized grid with fake buttons (19)
No-one asked for Undo to be hidden in a menu (19SP1)
No-one asked for bookmarks to be combined with asset filters (19SP1)
No-one asked for a new map to be a green carpet (19SP4)
No-one asked for trackmarks triggers etc to be PBRized (19SP5)
No-one asked for map options to be hidden in a menu, breaking a scriptable minimap in Driver (19SP5)
No-one asked to remove AA, then later (after us begging) put it back
We asked to REPAIR the consist GUI, instead it just got removed
We asked for newer more detailed more diverse passengers, but also that they are not totally dark at night
and we ask, to be able to use more different sets (can be added to Region to select)

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.. could have been better worded in a far less aggressive manner.

Some questions for N3V and/or developers:-

• Railyard - why was it removed and could it be returned?
• Default grid pattern - why is it now a PBR texture (with buttons)? Also why are trackmarks and triggers now PBR textured?
• Undo/Redo - why is it now a menu option and not a screen button icon? Could the button icons be returned?
• Bookmarks - why are they now in the Filters/Picklist window?
• Map options - why are they now hidden in a menu?
• Consist GUI - why was it removed and could it be returned?

All comments and opinions welcome.

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One that I could not quite get the point of - "removal of AA (antialiasing) then later (after us begging) put it back" - is this a complaint about its removal or its return?
Likewise the points about the passengers and the "sets" I could not get.

My opinions.

pware said:

One that I could not quite get the point of - "removal of AA (antialiasing) then later (after us begging) put it back" - is this a complaint about its removal or its return?
Likewise the points about the passengers and the "sets" I could not get.

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The A/A removal may have been an oversight. With the option being removed during beta and not added back in at production.

Passengers like most objects don't reflect light in the normal way and require fancy footwork to make them appear as they should at night. Being one that doesn't do any night driving or haven't done it in nearly two decades, I never noticed it.

The annoyance I have that I can't remember when it started, maybe TRS19 SP0 or TANE, occurs when building sessions.

In the great olden days, the route, was fully accessible while adding in driver commands to the command-bar in the Driver-Setup or Schedule Library. We could move about the route quickly and select track-marks on the route instead of having to search the lists or type in the name. With that plus the mini map actually scrolling and updating, we could build driver schedules easily. The track-mark names too could be turned on and off as needed instead in the triggers and markers tab on the fly instead of having to leave them on all the time while building a session. This was particularly helpful in those complex places where all the track-marks, direction markers, triggers, and other related animals, glow in their fullest glory.

When choosing the vehicle for the driver, we could click on the locomotives already placed on the route instead of either remembering the name, then selecting the locomotive from the subsequent list, or do as I do by getting properties on the locomotive placed on the route and then copying the name and pasting it into the space where we type in the name. This works okay except for when locomotives have really long names that appear in full in the hover over but are cut off in the selector. This is particularly problematic when there are many of the same locomotives on the route and the only difference is the numerical suffix.

I mentioned this many times and was duly ignored by management.

Thinking about the session-building issue, the way it is now is probably how it is on the mobile version and is fine for a simple route, but when applied to huge empires, which many of us still build, we end up on the short end of the stick.

An interesting thread.

I've been looking at what to expect from TRS22 and spoken with others regards same, with differing opinions of course! Having moved late to TRS19, I'm happy that performance is far better than it was in TANE, faster loading/save times, more stable, better FPS, quicker responses, and so on. Probably enough to keep me happy for a long while. Perhaps I'm mistaken but as far as I can tell, TRS22 doesn't appear to offer anything additional I'd consider desirable, without having to pay a subscription. I'm sure others will be happy enough with that. The one thing I'm unclear about is if a subscription will be required for FCT or will a stand alone ticket still be available.

I'm not opposed to a subscription model, I think that's where a lot of companies seem to be heading (I have the single purchase version of TRS19). I'm more inclined to part with precious beer tokens for good quality DLC and have done so for both Trainz and Train Sim, much more so for the latter, partly because there is more content for my area of interest, partly because quality is excellent. My main area of interest in Trainz is Surveyor but even so, I'm still not encouraged to purchase a membership for something which appears to make route building a little easier. That's my personal opinion and will differ from that of many others.

As a long time user, I often wonder how N3V arrives at decisions regarding each iteration of the game. I did do beta testing for one version and there was a lot of feedback, often regarding the same thing, which was then passed over. Presumably N3V use the beta testers as a type of consumer panel?

I'm generally very happy with the progress of the game over the years and would like to see it continue to grow, but there are still what I'd consider a few key areas where we are still getting the same experience as much older versions, most notably for me, the sound, which is what adds to an immersive driving experience (hence I build in Trainz, drive in Train Sim). It's always surprised me that more people don't seem to have an issue in this regard.

All said, N3V have a great product for such a small company.

Perhaps N3V should have created a poll listing all the possible features/options to be included, as they did in the Kickstarter, and allow the community to actually vote for what they want, so that no one can complain that the majority was ignored when they don't see the feature they want implemented.

dundun92 said:

Perhaps N3V should have created a poll listing all the possible features/options to be included, as they did in the Kickstarter, and allow the community to actually vote for what they want, so that no one can complain that the majority was ignored when they don't see the feature they want implemented.

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That's a good idea, really! From the almost 5 years of being on these forums (wow, it's been 5 years...), it does seem like N3V really does value community input, and I do know that they sometimes send polls out to the public, mainly with newsletters, so hopefully they do one soon for maybe TRS22 SP1/2, or maybe the next generation of Trainz. Who knows... would like to see a poll for new features in Trainz, though.

SRKing783 said:

That's a good idea, really! From the almost 5 years of being on these forums (wow, it's been 5 years...), it does seem like N3V really does value community input, and I do know that they sometimes send polls out to the public, mainly with newsletters, so hopefully they do one soon for maybe TRS22 SP1/2, or maybe the next generation of Trainz. Who knows... would like to see a poll for new features in Trainz, though.

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Suggestion Boxcar.