An Open Letter to N3V

Well presented opinion piece that I suspect a majority of us would agree with. Thanks jacksonbarno.

I'm not a fan of subscription models. I'm not a fan of the current packaged content that can as a side effect gobbling up assets so gigs of content have to be Dl'd to get a few missing assets - end of rant. I bought into Trainz+ because with the special offer I got essentially a "free" copy of TRS22 for the 1 yr Trainz+ subscription cost. A bit more than I've paid in the past but this copy won't go poof and evaporate off to electron heaven like everything else in the subscription when the payment runs out. And currently there are some extras you get with plus to offset the higher costs. Just like every other version of Trainz I have, I OWN this one. I can run it until the operating system refuses to load it or N3V turn out the lights and drift out of town or maybe longer.

@Laurinlaki - recently discovered your math library many thanks.

Bob Pearson

2022 needs better Weather and Night Lighting.

Product Passengers 2020 needs to be self illuminated as G.M. has pointed out.
They are very Dark at night, and do not look good in the Stations, or the Passenger Cars.

I hope that N3V will update the Product Passengers 2022.
All in all I do enjoy working in the 2022 as it does have better Graphics.

I do miss the Lightning Storms in the Rainy Weather. The TRS2006 had awesome Weather, but I do know that the Graphics Engine was auranjet and is way different than the 2019 and the 2022 Graphics..

This makes how many threads now about subscription and S2.0? I don't work for them.

Plus and the base 22 use the same content version numbers, so there isn't a difference. I think Trainz19 SP5 has the same version number.

S2.0 is still in beta testing, and still gathering feedback. S2.0 will not allow sections of payware to be copied and put in new routes. You want protection, and yet there was a long thread about this protection stifling the creation of new routes. Give time for S2.0 bugs and ideas to be worked out, plus documentation, hints and tricks. Some people like it, some people don't, and some are mixed. I can imaging all the complaints if S2.0 got added to the base Trainz22.

Trainz22, while mainly content, does clarify the minimum requirements for the Macs. Trainz19 had an improvement at SP3, which cut out old Macs. To gain new people, they have to update things, content as well as the underlying code. All that prettiness, takes coding time, money, processing power, and hard drive space. That also added compatibility with older content. All that fellability, makes things more complex. We ask them for beauty, flexibility and to make our own worlds, and yet..... somehow expect it to stay easy. You're willing to donate, why not subscribe for a bit? I'm sorry, but donations are nice, but no one can make a business plan around it. Subscriptions, can be planned around and planned income is important for businesses.

The next generation of people are going to be use Windows 11, and Ventura, etc. These all take time to code.

capdiamont said:

Plus and the base 22 use the same content version numbers, so there isn't a difference. I think Trainz19 SP5 has the same version number.

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They do at launch but I have been informed that this will likely change as Trainz Plus receives more updates. If this is not the case I invite N3V to clarify.

capdiamont said:

Give time for S2.0 bugs and ideas to be worked out, plus documentation, hints and tricks.

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Returning to the track record point I made, no previous version has released with any semblance of full documentation. Even features implemented as far back as TS09 have yet to be fully outlined on the Wiki. As much as I would like to believe this will change, I again have no reason to believe so.

capdiamont said:

I can imaging all the complaints if S2.0 got added to the base Trainz22.

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I believe most people's complaints revolve around S2 not being included in 22.

capdiamont said:

Trainz22, while mainly content, does clarify the minimum requirements for the Macs.

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Mac compatibility was not my issue. I understand that 19 cut out some Mac compatibility, however this can be resolved without selling a reworked version of 19 as a separate standalone product.

capdiamont said:

To gain new people, they have to update things, content as well as the underlying code.

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Understandable, however releasing an entirely new version of the game generally warrants addition of new features. Underlying code can be updated without releasing a new game that people need to pay for, and in fact we expect them to do so by releasing fixes and patches regularly throughout the game's life cycle.

capdiamont said:

All that fellability, makes things more complex. We ask them for beauty, flexibility and to make our own worlds, and yet..... somehow expect it to stay easy.

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I never said it was easy, however customers pay for a finished product - not just the effort that goes into it, but the actual product itself that we get to use. There would be a lot more wealthy people in the world if everybody was expected to pay based on effort rather than results.

capdiamont said:

You're willing to donate, why not subscribe for a bit? I'm sorry, but donations are nice, but no one can make a business plan around it. Subscriptions, can be planned around and planned income is important for businesses.

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I would rather donate than encourage a predatory business practice. In other circumstances where similar systems have been implemented, the quality of the product diminishes while the cost rises. I would rather donate than send N3V a message that the pivot towards such a model is acceptable. I would rather still encourage N3V work with the community to develop a plan that both allows them to gain a more stable source of income, and also shift away from a path that most seem to dislike. There is more than one way to bake a cake, and I refuse to believe that the only way for N3V to expand and/or stay viable as a company revolves around a subscription based service.

Furthermore, N3V themselves proved that donations can be an integral part of creating the next version of the game: the T:ANE project was largely crowdfunded via Kickstarter by donations from loyal community members who wanted to see a successful version of the game developed. While it is not a viable way to structure your business, I would wager alienating your existing user base is even less viable. It seems clear to me that people do not support this new service, at least alongside a base version of the game with no improvement.

I reiterate that there is a way to work together here, and a broad and diverse community of members who have a vested interest in the success and further development of this simulator. If we work together to figure this out, I have no doubt that Trainz will succeed beyond belief. However it is my opinion that the current trajectory leads to a worse outcome for the community, for content creators, and ultimately for N3V.

It took me awhile to decide to subscribe to Trainz + because I wanted to experience the new surveyor 2.0. The only feature I have used so far is the ability to rotate my copy and paste function to the angle I need to fit where I'm pasting. One other issue I was having was porting my Feather River route from trs19 to trs22 was apparently a route that was available as part of trs19 was not available in trs22. I had apparently used a lot of items from that route in the building my main route that I have been working on over the last ten years or so. The items that were missing (unknown assets) in the port were all packaged or packaged pay ware when I ported the route I needed the assets from. I had to buy the route ($15.00) from N3V to get all of the items I needed. Once bought, my missing assets problem disappeared. I'm not complaining about the money spent, but that I could not port the packaged items from a route that I technically owned from trs19 which became pay ware for trs22. ECML Kings Cross - Edinburg. Everything is working properly now, so far.

Jack

subscription models are only a way to squeeze more money out of consumers who forget to cancel their subscription. we've debated this for years and it still baffles me that people would enthusiastically rather pay almost triple the amount of money over a 3-year period than spend $70 once. unless you limit your subscription to around 13 month or so, you're basically paying multiples of the price of the base game for some few new bells and whistles that aren't even out of beta yet, and an FCT as a "bonus", as long as you want to use them. hell, you could pay almost DOUBLE PER YEAR and get access to all the DLC, which you then lose upon realizing your (or your parents') credit cards were maxed out two months ago. i love the idea of not actually owning my content and instead being told "you can use this until you don't pay us anymore". better off paying for each piece of DLC on its own, i seriously don't understand how smart individuals can see this as anything other than a predatory business practice.

the fact 22 doesn't have S2.0 included out-of-the-box means it's basically just a content upgrade: a few new routes (i have not heard good things about West From Denver, and Cornish Railways, which is available for free on the DLS, includes the entirety of Liskeard to Looe and another 80 miles of so of track) and some new trains, but not much in the way of new features outside of Unified Driver-Surveyour, which is admittedly pretty cool. but this isn't enough to justify, at minimum, another $70, and at maximum, a yearly $130, towards what is effectively an indie studio at this point. if 22 was like, $40, maybe i'd be more inclined to look the other way, but $70??? no way in hell is 22, in its current state, worth that awful price of admission.

22 should not have released until S2.0 was fully out of beta. the way i see it, 22 is a waste of money at the moment, even at a one-time fee of $70, compared to 19, which is currently serving my and most peoples' needs exceptionally well. i look forward to all the fanbois seething and shouting "well don't buy it then stupid!!!" as i continue to use 19 without a single regret that i spent $70 or more on a non-upgrade. have fun with your overpriced content expansion!

Subscriptions are not a predatory practice. You make not like it, but it does have uses. Programmers do require payment for their services. You don’t have to subscribe or buy any new version. I don’t do a lot of subscriptions, but some are needed. One alternative is they could have ads on billboards within the routes or something like that. There is a lot of stuff that requires paying for, taxes, electricity, bandwidth, hardware, software, ads and people.

The Wiki always can be edited by you or someone else for things not found. I find it really weird people complaining about a beta feature not being in the main program. It doesn’t make S1 inoperable in any of the previous versions. Again the ideas, and features are still being hashed out. That means that documentation on how it will operate will change. New people are not going to know how to do things and there will be complaints about that. In the meantime S1 is still around for a long time.

Isn't Surveyor 2.0 planned to be part of the retail version of TRS22 once Surveyor 2.0 is out of beta?

Frogpipe -
I don't believe so. I think it's planned for the next retail release. 2022 is content-heavy with only a few new features: unified driver-surveyor (imo a real gamechanger), the new effect layer tools, and multiplayer surveyor is apparently coming to the retail release Soon(TM). These have all been in Trainz Plus for a while and I think UDS may have been in the Platinum Edition for '19. Someone can feel free to correct me if this is not the case.
We've had content-heavy releases before (if you don't play multiplayer, all TS12 really brought to the table was satellite view, doppler sound, and a whole host of compatibility issues).

chris2001trainz2010 -
The value of the subscription for me lies in the inclusion of the FCT. Let's assume a new version of trainz every three years.
No subscription = $70 for trainz, plus $35 annually for an FCT = $175.
Subscription = $70 annually = $210.
It's marginally more (about $12 per year), but it's worth it to me to muck around with the new features like S2.0 and also, crucially, to avoid all the headaches regarding build numbers, trainz versions, patches, whatever. I'm always on the newest patch and it works pretty flawlessly.

Your comment about the FCT as a "bonus" surprises me because it's the main reason that I do choose to pay for a subscription. If it wasn't included, no way would I be a subscriber. You may not, but I would guess that probably a majority of Trainz users do have an FCT given how unusable the DLS is without it (once I made that leap, I could never go back).

I fully understand your comment about "owning your content". I'm a big believer in this when it comes to music. I don't use Spotify, Apple Music, whatever. I've purchased outright every single album that I listen to. But for me, for Trainz, for now, a subscription is the right choice.

frogpipe said:

Isn't Surveyor 2.0 planned to be part of the retail version of TRS22 once Surveyor 2.0 is out of beta?

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That seems to be the 64 million dollors question. My take, (and I'm very often wrong) is that if lots & lots of Trainers take up one of the "subscription options", then probably no. On the other hand if only a few Trainzers take up a subscription option, and others hold off purchasing 22 without Surveyor 2.0, then we might see N3V bundling S2.0 into TS2022 at some stage, so yes... Possibly as a service pack??? Lets hope they do include it in the retail stand-alone version, down the track...

At the moment, I personally don't think that even N3V knows. I think it's just a matter of "watch this space".

Cheers, Mac...

Trainz 22 to me just seems like the next step in a string of somewhat questionable and frankly baffling decisions being made by N3V as of late. I love Trainz as a game and have been a long time supporter for over a decade, but the direction N3V seems to take the game concerns me. This is not a product in which a subscription service is the way to go; This is not Netflix, it is Trainz. I've heard the argument before from N3V devs that we are only spending as much per month as we would on a streaming service subscription or likewise, however in the case of a streaming service the content and entertainment is provided for you; in Trainz's case, it is not. Sure there are built in routes and content, but often times what is included is subpar compared to the thousands of assets available as freeware or payware from talented creators. I never find myself using any of the built-in routes from TRS19 and I can't see myself doing the same for TRS22. As a content creator I want more features that enhance my experience, things users and begged and pleaded to be added for so long now: multi-point lighting, improved skybox, weather effects, a moon, something missing from the game for over two decades now. Surveyor 2.0 is a fantastic step in the right direction however the locking of S2.0 behind a paywall is highly discouraging to me as a prospective buyer. Another feature of TRS22 that is locked behind a subscription service is of course Multiplayer Surveyor. This was another feature highly requested by the community and although N3V delivered on their promise, MPS is incredibly limited in scope right now because of N3Vs persistence to have everything linked back to their servers rather than allowing for locally hosted MPS and custom content not required to be on the DLS.

Overall, I'll be skipping TRS22 for now. Why upgrade when I already have TRS19? What is the point of me, to put it in simple terms, paying $70 each year for Trainz 19 again, and again, just to have two new features, one of which doesn't currently let me work on private route projects with friends and colleagues without everything being on the DLS and the other for new route building tools that offer a few additional shortcuts and tricks to speed up route building time? I know that's probably oversimplifying things, but its how I see it as an observer. I can't think of a single person I have ever talked who buys Trainz for the base content. If N3V is desperate for money and absolutely has to get a game release out now, then they might want to load it with as many features out of the box as possible to get people encouraged to buy the game.

frogpipe said:

Isn't Surveyor 2.0 planned to be part of the retail version of TRS22 once Surveyor 2.0 is out of beta?

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Tony said that it will find its way to a "future trainz product", so I would personally assume no. https://forums.auran.com/trainz/sho...e-to-TRS22-from-the-CEO&p=1899350#post1899350



TRS22 appears on my lineup btw, but I didn't buy it. it was just a beta that has now expired. Being a content creator myself, I think daylight pretty much sums up my views about N3V right now. At times I will admit that I have been just a bit too vocal expressing my disappointment with N3V's decision to move to subscription, and believe me, I'm glad N3V is approaching a ROI, but if N3V really needed the money so badly, I honestly would have preferred a fundraiser like the TANE Kickstarter.

chris2001trainz2010 said:

subscription models are only a way to squeeze more money out of consumers who forget to cancel their subscription. we've debated this for years and it still baffles me that people would enthusiastically rather pay almost triple the amount of money over a 3-year period than spend $70 once. unless you limit your subscription to around 13 month or so, you're basically paying multiples of the price of the base game for some few new bells and whistles that aren't even out of beta yet, and an FCT as a "bonus", as long as you want to use them.

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This has to be one of the most disingenuous and misleading paragraphs I've read on here in a while. An FCT, which costs literally HALF of what Trainz+ costs, is thrown to the wayside by you as a "BONUS" as if it isn't a defining perk of Trainz+. 3 Years of Trainz+ is $210, a Trainz edition plus an FCT for those 3 years is $175, with worse features. What you're lying about here is less than $12 a year. It's posts like yours that degrade Jackson's points, because you have jumped on and lied, almost taking away credibility from HIS great points.

If you don't want a subscription Chris, then don't get one. It's pretty simple. But don't deliberately mislead for the sake of an argument when it takes credibility away from others' worthwhile posts.

I fully support the subscription model. From a quality of life standpoint, as someone from a family in the video game industry it is such an improvement in the quality of life of the employees that I fully support it in this situation with such a small developer. My free market view points also support the attempt. Capitalism at it's finest. If the market won't support the subscription/hybrid plan then it will be corrected. The OP works for a website that sells payware through there website only and not thru N3V's store for context I didn't see disclosed.

Well for me, the big "gotta have it" is the alleged ability to TYPE IN rotation and height (and maybe other things) when positioning objects in surveyor 2.0.

If that's not on the table, I'm not coming to it I'm afraid.

The other things that would bring me around is a real sound system (at present its still a disgrace with sounds cutting out at random etc) and getting things like the UI controls and cabin controls coordinated (like some locos have more or less than 8 notches, and the crazy way things jump around with non-selflapping brakes).

I appreciate (meant both as gratitude AND understanding) the big picture grand items like surveyor 2.0 - but there are a **** ton of little detail defects that also need attention.

So, its either fix those and or QOL changes to surveyor if I'm going to part with my money.

Full Disclosure: I am only subbed to FCTs for now.

Given the detailed OP, I’ve prepared a response by summarising the main points and responding to each. I've tried to parry it down to the main points as there's a lot to cover. I haven't addresses other comments in this post. I may get to address them later today.

Surveyor 2 looks FANTASTIC and is exactly the improvement Trainz has been needing for a while. However, the way it is being sold by N3V via the Trainz Plus subscription is very concerning.

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Rephrasing that it sounds like you’re saying “here’s a really great feature that I want, but I don’t want to pay more than I have to for it, and I don’t want to wait for it either.”

You will be able to purchase S20 in a future edition when it’s gone through more iterations and polish. Trainz Plus gives you this feature and more new features that we will be adding regularly.

If you want to access it now, you need to support the ongoing development by becoming a member.

The current subscription model requires the user to pay a yearly fee to access all new features rolled out with the latest release of the game, a price tag at minimum of $70 per year.

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This isn’t quite right. To start, the $70 a year includes an FCT, so there’s really only half that amount attributed to the game. You also get all the TANE and TRS19 built-in content, so for users who haven’t purchased those two versions, there is a huge amount of additional content.

In addition, there are new features added on a regular basis, so for next year’s sub, you get several more features. In other words you’re not buying the product off the shelf like TRS22.

The base game of TS22 is, in essence, a "content release," meaning the base game has changed very little from the previous version, with the included content being the main differentiating factor.

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It isn’t as big a graphical change as in the past, that is true. However, there are new features, and the content included is a step up from previous releases as well. It has been built to take advantage of the latest engine features, and the value based upon regular DLC pricing makes “just a content release” worth while in any case.

But this approach ignores all the new features, bug fixes and optimisations.

New TRS22 features for TRS19 Platinum users means MPS and new bulk update tools, while for TRS19 users it also means UDS, cameras, Content Store are new.

To access the main features of this version of the game, mainly being surveyor 2.0, you must maintain your subscription year on year or you will lose access.

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Sure, but it’s costing you less than 20 cents a day, and you’re getting regular feature and content updates. Conversely, if you purchase Trainz once every 3 years, you save money, but have to wait to get all the new features Trainz Plus have been enjoying as a benefit of their ongoing subs.

Changes between base and Trainz Plus versions of the game may potentially prevent the sharing of routes from the Plus version to the base game.

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No, this won’t happen. With the release of MPS for TRS22 users, ongoing compatibility is required so that all players can connect to our servers.

Another issue arises if a user ends their subscription. Theoretically, when the user's subscription ends, they will be locked out of content they have created due to Trainz Plus having a higher build number than the base game.

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No. This is a major red herring and something I can very clearly state will not occur.

The base game of Trainz 22 seems to, in essence, be Trainz 19 with few, if any changes.

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No. See above.

Although future changes to the base game may be promised, I believe we have very little evidence to suggest that any real changes will happen. TS12 and T:ANE received no major additions after launch aside from fixes (which are always appreciated, but that's beside the point).

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I’m not sure where this concept has come from. We’ve always promised Service Packs to address any issues that arise and we’ve sometimes added features into the mix.

TS19 was seemingly only granted MPS as a trial

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>>
No. TRS19 has not had MPS as a feature. Perhaps you might be referring to Trainz Plus during the TRS19 era.

If Trainz 22 were to receive some improvements over the base version of Trainz 19 (aside from Surveyor 2) that were promised as far back as T:ANE, such as improved weather, an improved skybox, or even implementation of things like three way switches and diamonds, I would feel differently.

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>> If you check back to Kickstarter project, you see these “Promises” were, in fact, “Stretch goals”. Insufficient crowdfunding meant those goals were not reached. And there is a list of 1,000+ other features that people would like to see, but not enough people prepared to pay for them to be developed.

…But minor environmental tweaks and completely messing up the error system do not seem to be the major improvements

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I’m not sure what you’re referring to.

TS12…T:ANE…TS19 added … “lots of things”
TS22 seems to bring nothing new to the table without paying a yearly subscription.

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As above, for everyone, there has been lots of content added, plus bug fixes and optimisations.
For TRS19 Platinum users, they also get MPS and a number of bulk update tools
For TRS19 users, they get the previous round of Trainz Plus features - namely Unified Driver Surveyor, various new camera options (Drone cam is my favorite especially for coupling operations), Content Store,

Personally, I look at these sort of things from a cost/benefit perspective - is the cost of Trainz 22 and the subscription every year worth the improved surveyor mechanic?

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Only you can determine the value you perceive. From our perspective, one new version of Trainz every 3 years doesn’t keep the ship afloat. If the alternative is no more Trainz, what do you think then?

Subscription based models are widely accepted as an extremely predatory business practice in the gaming industry

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>>
Accepted? Predatory? Really?
Memberships are optional. If you want more features more quickly, then choose Trainz Plus. If you want more content as well, choose Gold Class.

If you want to pay once-off as each new major product is released, and not receive the subscription benefits, feel free to keep doing that

If the core issue is financial, and if the move to a subscription is out of necessity, then I wish the company would be more transparent.

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How exactly? We’re a private company, but basically everything we earn is reinvested in new features and products.

There are other ways to generate cashflow

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I’m all ears.

Either way, if N3V feels that this system is successful, I have a feeling it will be here to stay, and that is bad for all users of this sim.

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I totally disagree. The worst thing for Trainz users would be no further development of Trainz. The growing membership base are supporting more and more of the ongoing development of Trainz. Non-members simply need to wait until there's a product they're happy to pay for in the store. We know not everyone will buy every product, but we also know that with more and more people seeing value in memberships, we've been able to expand our dev team further. So surely a good thing for Trainz.

I hope this letter is taken with the best intent in mind.

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It is. Thanks.

This is by far the best train simulator on the market, and the community is one of the strongest.

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>>
I agree. So how much is it worth to you per day to enjoy that product and to support the developer to make it better? You pay your ISP provider each month, and I expect that it’s a lot more than $8/mth.


(And just a note on Scrapbooks).

The scrapbook tool in Surveyor 2 is a fantastic utility that is incredibly useful, but one major issue I can foresee in its implementation is that people can steal whole scenes or sections of routes for use in their own projects without permission.

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We currently do not allow Scrapbooks in payware routes to be used in other routes. We have been told that this practice is unfair and should be dropped. You’re suggesting the opposite, that we should not allow Scrapbooks to be used in any other route.
Given users can currently merge non-payware routes, I don’t see this as a new issue.


Also, join us for a SURVEYOR 2.0 DEMO - Wed 15 June 10 am AEST
DISCORD chat + live stream + in-game with TRS22 or Trainz Plus.

I did not like 19 and i have seen nothing to inspire me t
Frankobuy 22

Just wanted to add my 2 pence worth to the conversation.

I have Trainz+ as I find it the easiest way to ensure I have the latest version without having to fork out for a brand new game once every few years. I can honestly say it was the best decision I made with Trainz as everything has suddenly become so much easier and quicker to manage - no more multiple installations, installing a game from scratch etc. For any of you who are considering Trainz+, I would 100% recommend.

The other part to my message was just to say a thank you to Tony - it is not often that those who game get to post their feelings about a game and receive a reply direct from the CEO of the company who have created it so kudos to you Tony, it really sets you and the rest of N3V above the rest and I genuinely appreciate your responses on all topics, even when some of the messages directed towards N3V are not positive.

I think the OP hit the nail on the head; we have one of the strongest communities out there but we are incredibly lucky in that the community also includes he developers themselves, who are active and can be contacted with ease.

So thank you, Tony and all at N3V for the hard work, your clear, transparent answers and for engaging with us to help us with any questions or queries we have. It's appreciated!

Cheers,

PLP