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An Open Letter to N3V
- Thread starter jacksonbarno
- Start date
Glad I ran across this post. I just bought a new Alienware r13 and entertained the thought of installing TR22 but will definitely pass on it till something positive appears. In fact I am not happy with NV3 to begin with. I purchased TR19 several months ago and was never able to install it. When I tried it said it would take 60 hours and about 15 minutes later it jumped to 80 hours. Then in about 10 minutes it quit installing completely. All this happened so often I finally just gave up and cut my losses. I finally figured out it was my computer and the internet combination preventing the installation. I have now scrapped the computer and due to NV3 and their digital download only I am out TR19 and the cost of the purchase with nothing to show for it. To bad they can’t get it through their thick sculls digital downloads are not always reliable and begin using DVD format as it used to be. In fact I still have my TR2006 DVD’s and if I thought it would work with Windows 11 I would install it.
That sounds like either an Internet issue, disk issue or memory issue.
2006 will run in Win 11, just need to install DirectX 9 or rather the missing bits from Microsoft https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=8109 and enable Direct Play under Windows Features, Legacy components and run the 2006 installer as Admin and probably in Compatibility mode for Win7. I have had TC3 (based on 2006) running in Win11 just to see if it would, it did.
As I posted in your thread about Windows 11, there is no problem running TRS19 or TRS22 in Windows 11 Even the original Trainz demos work in Win11, they look extremely dated though.
Hi Malc. From your experience, is there any issue with installing the DirectX 9 at your link on top of Windows 11? I don't want to overwrite any newer drivers but would like the added compatibility.
No its an official Microsoft fix for legacy games, it doesn't replace anything just adds the files that Microsoft didn't include in DX10 upwards, it co-exists with DX11 and 12.
jacksonbarno
Alco Spoken Here
The new coming features in the newsletter all seem very nice... But I’m still wondering if the regular TS22 version without the subscription will get any features at all. Still seems like N3V is flat out ignoring actually developing the game and instead trying to force people down the subscription path.
The new coming features in the newsletter all seem very nice... But I’m still wondering if the regular TS22 version without the subscription will get any features at all.
Open the Trainz22 link at the top of this page and scroll down the page. There you will see a list of new TRS22 features - most of which are currently found only in Trainz Plus. One, the UDS, is also in TRS19 Platinum as well as Trainz Plus.
Still seems like N3V is flat out ignoring actually developing the game and instead trying to force people down the subscription path.
I don't know what your evidence for that statement is, but N3V have always made it clear that a retail version of Trainz will always be available. The subscription version will be where new features are developed and will first appear.
As for "ignoring actually developing the game" - you may have missed the point of the "new coming features" you read about in the newsletter.
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jacksonbarno
Alco Spoken Here
We've been over this, all of the base features aside from MPS are included in 19, and not a single improvement listed seems to be aimed at improving the base game.
Yes, they are ignoring developing the actual base version of 22, as I've been saying since the start of this thread. I understand the point of the subscription model and how it brings development to the community sooner, but it still doesn't change the fact that everything is locked behind a pay wall. There's still no actual improvement to the base version, seemingly no genuine plan or effort to make any changes (despite what N3V might have been saying), and very little emphasis placed on the fact that the base 22 version is just a copy of 19.
I would at the very least like to see any sort of plan as to what is in store for the non-subscription version. All things published so far point towards the subscription packages being the only focus for any additional development further.
I would like to point out that Tony in his answer to my initial post outlined that the subscription service was to be an added level, and not a replacement for development of the base version of the game. I am simply saying that I think we all deserve some substance to back that up.
Yes, they are ignoring developing the actual base version of 22, as I've been saying since the start of this thread. I understand the point of the subscription model and how it brings development to the community sooner, but it still doesn't change the fact that everything is locked behind a pay wall. There's still no actual improvement to the base version, seemingly no genuine plan or effort to make any changes (despite what N3V might have been saying), and very little emphasis placed on the fact that the base 22 version is just a copy of 19.
I would at the very least like to see any sort of plan as to what is in store for the non-subscription version. All things published so far point towards the subscription packages being the only focus for any additional development further.
I would like to point out that Tony in his answer to my initial post outlined that the subscription service was to be an added level, and not a replacement for development of the base version of the game. I am simply saying that I think we all deserve some substance to back that up.
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So, if I understand you correctly, you want new feature to appear in the next retail release that are not present in the subscription release?
I agree with you that the subscription version is the development path for new features that will, eventually, make it into the retail versions. This makes perfect sense to me on a number of points, one of which is that it avoids the trap of running multiple development paths. It also acts as a "carrot" to take up the subscription for those of us, myself included, who like to see and use new features as early as possible. Breaking this model by putting new novel features into the retail version alone could discourage the uptake of subscriptions - and that is a commercial decision that would affect cash-flow and the speed of future developments. But N3V is a business, not a charity. And as you pointed out, we have been over all of this before.
I agree (and have posted on this point in other threads) that the move to TRS22 from TRS19 Platinum is not as "big a leap" as it is from TRS19 (standard), in my opinion at least. But an improvement it still is (again in my opinion) and certainly, in my experience, a greater improvement than the move was from TS2009 to TS2010. I purchased TRS19 Platinum instead of TRS19 (standard) purely because it included the UDS, a decision I have not regretted. I also moved over to the subscription model because I saw its benefits for future features - and again I have not been disappointed.
I agree with you that the subscription version is the development path for new features that will, eventually, make it into the retail versions. This makes perfect sense to me on a number of points, one of which is that it avoids the trap of running multiple development paths. It also acts as a "carrot" to take up the subscription for those of us, myself included, who like to see and use new features as early as possible. Breaking this model by putting new novel features into the retail version alone could discourage the uptake of subscriptions - and that is a commercial decision that would affect cash-flow and the speed of future developments. But N3V is a business, not a charity. And as you pointed out, we have been over all of this before.
I agree (and have posted on this point in other threads) that the move to TRS22 from TRS19 Platinum is not as "big a leap" as it is from TRS19 (standard), in my opinion at least. But an improvement it still is (again in my opinion) and certainly, in my experience, a greater improvement than the move was from TS2009 to TS2010. I purchased TRS19 Platinum instead of TRS19 (standard) purely because it included the UDS, a decision I have not regretted. I also moved over to the subscription model because I saw its benefits for future features - and again I have not been disappointed.
subscription services are dumb
I also moved over to the subscription model because I saw its benefits for future features - and again I have not been disappointed.
If that's what works for you, fine. Not everyone sees it that way though. I for one, create most of my own content and sessions so a subscription model is entirely useless to me.
Apparently, the differences between 19 and 22 base builds are few and far between, hence I have no interest in 22. None, zero, zip.
N3V can do whatever they want with their platform, but alienating a significant cross section of current users doesn't bode well for retention. Trainz is far from state-of-the-art. By the time 2024 or 25 rolls around, a new kid on the block could in all likelihood be using real world maps, realistic RTC scenarios, VR, sponsoring railroads, advanced multimedia etc. The perception being, N3V seems less interested in embracing technology than it is about milking an old cow to death.
there are far too many people legitimately buying into this subscription stuff. it won't be going away anytime soon
It won't be easy for a new company to directly compete with trainz. Perhaps the one thing that sets trainz apart is the thousands of high quality freeware locomotives and assets on the dls. Right now though, Trainz is a one of a kind simulator that has no competition in its market and is significantly better in a lot of ways compared to any of its competitors. I don't know of any other train game with the flexibility and freedom that trainz offers. I don't like the subscription either, but what N3V is developing right now is way more exciting than what any of trainz's competitors have to offer.Trainz is far from state-of-the-art. By the time 2024 or 25 rolls around, a new kid on the block could in all likelihood be using real world maps, realistic RTC scenarios, VR, sponsoring railroads, advanced multimedia etc.
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subscription services are dumb
Solid argument. I'm sure N3V and EVERYONE else are trembling in their boots about this amazing, cohesive argument
I don't like the subscription either, but what N3V is developing right now is way more exciting than what any of trainz's competitors have to offer.
It's not so much the subscription model as it is the bloated rehash of older builds under the guise of new. Take MSFS 2020 for example. It's largely a subscription model too, but it's spectacular when compared to FSX or other flight simulators. It has full development tools built in.
It's just my opinion, but Trainz needs a quantum leap in the next edition, if it's to succeed into the next decades. Good enough for now because competition is weak stifles development.
Trainz is inching toward becoming a game, rather than a simulator. That's terrific for folks who don't create content, but the content creation community suffers for it. Some changes were necessary. Deprecating .pm meshes for .im meshes alienated a lot of creators and content. Auran deleted dozens of my uploaded assets, which left a bad impression in many, but at the very least it was for the long term good, though. Duke Nukem was a great game, not just because it was an early first person shooter, but because it included the development tools, which allowed users to create their own levels.
I'm not sure what the ratio of creators to regular users is, but I suspect good content creators are few and far between. I get that N3V needs to make hay from that, but those same creators had much to do with where Trainz is today. The content community used to be more tight knit and helpful, but largely gone downhill. It's sad to watch good talent throw their hands in the air. There's a lot of third party software for Trainz. PEV Tools, TrainzUp, TransDEM to name a few. They're all cool, but N3V missed the boat. Had N3V developed the tools, they might have done well to offer those in a subscription package for developers. If they were good tools, I'd happily pay extra for them. A script compiler with color coding, error notations, examples and documentation would be delightful, instead of hacking with notepad referencing poorly written wikis. Revival of Trainz PaintShed, but for modern models (buildings too) ought not be too difficult and likely appeal to a broad scope of users. It was a payware addon most didn't object to, nor was it difficult to use.
And it's like I say. I will take a pass on 22 which leaves me guarded on editions after that. Unless it has new features such as real world maps/terrain interfaced with other state-of-the-art graphics/multimedia, I'd probably skip on that too.
lackoo11111
Member
My two cents in this discussion:
I would prefer to see more backward content compatibility with all the older Trainz versions than the useless DX12 and Nvidia crap .
I would prefer to see more backward content compatibility with all the older Trainz versions than the useless DX12 and Nvidia crap .
My two cents in this discussion:
I would prefer to see more backward content compatibility with all the older Trainz versions than the useless DX12 and Nvidia crap .
What exactly does this mean? N3V should focus more on games that don't make money rather than new games that will make them money?
If that's what works for you, fine. Not everyone sees it that way though. I for one, create most of my own content and sessions so a subscription model is entirely useless to me.
Apparently, the differences between 19 and 22 base builds are few and far between, hence I have no interest in 22. None, zero, zip.
Your point of view is just as valid as mine and anyone else's. I create most of my own routes and sessions but I find that the tools provided in Trainz Plus are far more useful to me than those provided in TRS19. So the subscription model is of interest to me. The routes and session I create I am able to test in TRS22, which was included in my subscription.
As has been pointed out many times by many, including myself, the subscription is not for everyone. We each have our own individual needs and circumstances. I know that many cannot afford to pay the annual subscription fee and that for some, even the one-off purchase of Trainz every few years, is a challenge.
N3V can do whatever they want with their platform, but alienating a significant cross section of current users doesn't bode well for retention.
I don't know what the "significant" in the "significant cross section of current users" is based on. Tony posted a while back that the uptake in subscriptions and the resulting steady cash flow increase has been enough to hire additional programming staff. That must benefit all users, subscribers and non-subscribers alike.
Trainz is far from state-of-the-art. By the time 2024 or 25 rolls around, a new kid on the block could in all likelihood be using real world maps, realistic RTC scenarios, VR, sponsoring railroads, advanced multimedia etc.
As far as I know none of us can predict the future with any certainty beyond mere chance. You may be right, you may be wrong. In the IT world, new developments can appear seemingly "overnight" and shake up the entire industry. That may happen, who can tell.
There was a thread at the end of last year (link here) where the OP was claiming that the Unreal 5 Game Engine would make a far better game engine that the current Trainz Game Engine. A bit of investigation revealed the fallacy of that claim. While Unreal 5 is good at what it does (for TV and movies) it still lacks a great deal for a fully interactive simulation and would require a lot of extra coding just to achieve what we already have in Trainz.
The perception being, N3V seems less interested in embracing technology than it is about milking an old cow to death.
Ever since Trainz appeared, many have made predictions about its imminent demise for "this" or "that" reason. Just like predictions such as "the mountains will fall, the seas will rise", if you wait long enough eventually the mountains will fall and the seas will rise (which could be sooner than you think).
According to your Trainz timeline, you have been with Trainz almost as long as I have and have seen the changes that have occurred. The claims about being "less interested in embracing technology" and "milking an old cow to death" can be applied to every software development company. There is always a time lag between new technology arriving on the scene and the software industry adopting it. For example, I have not yet seen a tidal wave of ray tracing gaming or other software hitting the market and how long have the Nvidia RTX cards been available? I was pleased to see in a recent newsletter that N3V have started developing ray tracing for the DX12 graphics system.
New technology is expensive (for both developers and consumers), has a learning curve and early adopters often get burnt.
My thoughts.
lackoo11111
Member
What exactly does this mean? N3V should focus more on games that don't make money rather than new games that will make them money?
From my point of view ( as a " gamer " ) I'd like to have only one copy of Trainz installed on my PC than multiple versions because of the incompatibility of content / routes between the different Trainz versions .
From the point of view of content creators: Ask Sirgibby how hard and time-consuming to update his Murchison 2 to be compatible with TANE , TRS19 and TRS22 .
From my point of view ( as a " gamer " ) I'd like to have only one copy of Trainz installed on my PC than multiple versions because of the incompatibility of content / routes between the different Trainz versions .
From the point of view of content creators: Ask Sirgibby how hard and time-consuming to update his Murchison 2 to be compatible with TANE , TRS19 and TRS22 .
So, throw progress to the wind so that a route made TWENTY Years ago doesn't require any modification to bring it up to scratch with that progress? Old routes, ARE, compatible in Trainz...
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