An Open Letter to N3V

A great (and polite) discussion.

jacksonbarno said:

My point is that there are no new features offered in Trainz 22, and that the only new features come with the subscription offering.

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What is a "new feature" or not is matter of opinion. To some MPS is a "new feature" but if you don't use it?. If your timeline went back one version to TRS2009 then you would be asking the same question, what was "new" in TRS2010?

TRS22 is not the subscription product, it is a standalone outright purchase. Trainz Plus is the subscription product that has the new features (S20, new Bulk Fill options, etc) and also takes on the features, appearance and abilities of the latest current Trainz releases, which was TRS19 but is now TRS22. When TRS2X is released, Trainz Plus will look and act like TRS2x with the current, updated and new subscription features that have appeared between major releases.

ajrf said:

It's disgusting how the gaming industry is pushing its customers to pay monthly for characteristics that at first should be stock. We'll miss the old times when you buy a game and you enjoyed the most part of it without having to pay again for anything.

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You can still buy games (Microsoft, Apple, XBox, Playstation, N3V, etc) as outright purchases, no-one is being forced or pushed into subscriptions. If I was a Playstation owner who only played a few favourite games or bought only one or two new ones each year, then a subscription that gave me access to hundreds of games would probably not appeal. I would stay with the outright purchase system.

Subscriptions are attractive to people who see other benefits and those benefits will vary from one individual to another. In my case I recently took up a subscription to Disney+ because I wanted access to their Marvel TV series that I could not get any other way. Their Marvel movies I could get on DVD but not the Marvel TV series ("Moon Knight" and "Ms Marvel" are my current favourites). I have no other streaming subscriptions. So far Disney+ has not disappointed me.

ajrf said:

This is a much concern basically for parents (and I don't even have kids) as this might create a compulsive buying behavior.

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Totally agree there but the horse has already bolted with the avalanche of "free" iPhone and Android games that have in-game purchases.

dleblanc said:

TRS2019 works well for me. I'll watch the progression of 22 keenly, but I'm definitely not chomping on any bits trying to update the version any time soon.

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To me that is a very sensible approach. In my opinion TRS22 by itself does not offer significant advantages in areas that interest me (e.g. I am not into multiplayer) over the TRS19 Platinum Edition. But the inclusion of the UDS interface makes it a significant upgrade (again in my opinion) over TRS19 (standard). So if I was currently on TRS19 (standard) then I would upgrade to TRS22. The presence of the UDS was enough to convince me to upgrade from T:ANE to TRS19 Platinum Edition and bypass TRS19. But it all comes down to what each individual user wants and needs.

The complaint is that the subscription is offering the kind of upgrade that would usually be part of a standalone upgrade, and now the standalone upgrade is barely anything at all. In my opinion, if the subscription offered something well above and beyond any ordinary previous standalone upgrade, it would be justified. But this is just my opinion.

@dundun92, mine also and by the look of it, a majority of people commenting on this thread. It is N3V's business model, and looks to be the status quo. We will, all of us, have to live with our decisions. It's called Capitalism. No one is being forced to do anything that they do not want to do.

From my observations, in addition to MPS, which I tried during a previous beta and found it useful but not for me, there are some less obvious updates to TRS22. Some of these things did also make it into TRS19 SP5 as well and include some big fixes to the track issues we had plus some performance improvements. Overall, Content Manager loads quicker and so does the content within the program in TRS22.

So, the new stuff in TRS22 is as follows as I see it:

-- Bug fixes
-- Performance improvements
-- MPS
-- Some new exclusive routes.

For Plus users, we get all of the above plus dibs at Surveyor 2.0 to continue to break and report bugs on.

I'm not keen on the subscription model but then again, I was already paying for the FCT anyway and the additional program features plus the FCT for a bit more was worth it. When paid monthly, the subscription costs me $12.99. Recently one of my really, really expensive music programs has gone subscription. There is one this plus other subscriptions I have, and the trend has been heading that way for everything. I'm waiting for subscriptions to drive cars above and beyond excise taxes, registration, and insurance. (I shouldn't say this too loudly because I might give them ideas).

The way I see it, SAAS is here to stay and is no longer in the realm of big corporations offered by the likes of big companies such as Oracle and Computer Associates for CRM and other corporate data applications. The consumer is now facing the same concept but under a different name.

JCitron said:

but then again, I was already paying for the FCT anyway and the additional program features plus the FCT for a bit more was worth it.

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I will go a bit further and say that the FCT system needs to go as well. I understand the DLS hosting costs needs to be covered, but seriously, its 2022. Why should we have to pay to get anything above 2kbs? Literally every modern platform offers free fast downloads speeds, and have long dropped the idea of paid download speed. People are already paying $100 monthly for fast internet, why do I need to pay more to access a single games free content? Again this is just my personal opinion but I'm just throwing it out there.

Also, if TRS22 standalone had something like a FCT bundled with it, that alone would make it worth it IMO. By taking away S20, that leaves a gap in value that I feel needs something else to make the $70 worth it. As Vern said awhile back, $40-50 seems more reasonable to me, but again N3V are free to sell their game as they wish.

dundun92 said:

I will go a bit further and say that the FCT system needs to go as well. I understand the DLS hosting costs needs to be covered, but seriously, its 2022. Why should we have to pay to get anything above 2kbs? Literally every modern platform offers free fast downloads speeds, and have long dropped the idea of paid download speed. People are already paying $100 monthly for fast internet, why do I need to pay more to access a single games free content? Again this is just my personal opinion but I'm just throwing it out there.

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Be careful what you wish for!
N3V is not the charity you imagine it to be. Priority access to the DLS by covering its costs with a subscription is just one of the many choices we have in Trainz. You currently have the choice of not paying and therefore downloading less at a slower speed when FCT holders have had their fill, or paying for a premium service. If N3V don't make some money, there would be no point in continuing development of Trainz. For any business CASHFLOW IS KING.
Your argument regarding paying for fast internet holds no water. By your estimation, once you have paid for your internet you should be able to have free full access to video streaming services, Youtube Premium, Office365, accounting software, video editing software, etc. The real world does not operate that way and I know capitalism sucks, but there is no point in whining about it and life is loaded with compromises after all. Choose a level of engagement with Trainz that satisfies you.
N3V does give much more with their subscriptions than many other game companies.

dundun92 said:

If TRS22 standalone had something like a FCT bundled with it, that alone would make it worth it IMO. By taking away S20, that leaves a gap in value that I feel needs something else to make the $70 worth it. As Vern said awhile back, $40-50 seems more reasonable to me, but again N3V are free to sell their game as they wish.

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I agree. S20 is far from finished and be glad it's not available now, otherwise you'd be quite disappointed and frustrated. Seriously, it's not ready for primetime much as Tony thinks it is and there are still lots of things that need more than a lick and promise. As was said before, this nifty new version will most likely be included in some future version of Trainz whether it's TRS22 SP 5, or TRS24. That's for N3V to decide.

MPS is a major feature that differentiates 22 from 19. The fact that it is personally of no interest to me doesn’t alter that fact.

I feel the nervousness that surrounds subscriptions comes from companies such as Adobe who have made it the only option.

amigacooke said:

I feel the nervousness that surrounds subscriptions comes from companies such as Adobe who have made it the only option.

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Understandable. I had the same fears when subscription streaming TV services started. I thought it would be the end of free-to-air TV but the traditional networks have fought back with free streaming channels of their own. Paradoxically, my partner and I frequently watch the free streaming channels more than the free broadcast channels with the paid subscription channel (Disney+) a distant last in terms of viewing times.

I see no evidence that the major software developers are going to follow Adobe's move into subscription only. The recent article I mentioned on subscription gaming made it clear that Microsoft sees subscription services as an option for users only, not as the only means of obtaining their products. I suspect that Adobe's market is more towards the professional user for its high end (and high cost) products (Photoshop etc). Whereas Microsoft's market demographic still has a significant slice of the home (non-professional) user market.

My theories anyway.

dundun92 said:

I will go a bit further and say that the FCT system needs to go as well. I understand the DLS hosting costs needs to be covered, but seriously, its 2022. Why should we have to pay to get anything above 2kbs? Literally every modern platform offers free fast downloads speeds, and have long dropped the idea of paid download speed. People are already paying $100 monthly for fast internet, why do I need to pay more to access a single games free content? Again this is just my personal opinion but I'm just throwing it out there.

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Netflix charges more for 4K content because of the greater bandwidth usage. You understand costs need to be covered, then how do you propose to cover those costs? Those costs are not just hosting, but also includes taxes, personal, bandwidth, electricity, hardware and software. All those software and assets take a lot of space and use a lot of bandwidth.

pware said:

Understandable. I had the same fears when subscription streaming TV services started. I thought it would be the end of free-to-air TV but the traditional networks have fought back with free streaming channels of their own. Paradoxically, my partner and I frequently watch the free streaming channels more than the free broadcast channels with the paid subscription channel (Disney+) a distant last in terms of viewing times.

I see no evidence that the major software developers are going to follow Adobe's move into subscription only. The recent article I mentioned on subscription gaming made it clear that Microsoft sees subscription services as an option for users only, not as the only means of obtaining their products. I suspect that Adobe's market is more towards the professional user for its high end (and high cost) products (Photoshop etc). Whereas Microsoft's market demographic still has a significant slice of the home (non-professional) user market.

My theories anyway.

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It's not the same thing when you subscribe a streaming service to see a random series than a piece of software that you use regularly. Not to mention that this would encourage piracy in some programs like 3DsMax (known by its pornographic subscription prices).

ajrf said:

It's not the same thing when you subscribe a streaming service to see a random series than a piece of software that you use regularly.

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I understand what you are saying but I have to disagree. The route and session that you are creating and running is just data, the "random series" you are viewing on Netflix or any streaming service is also just data. The software that controls your access to the streaming data is like the software (TRS19, 22, Plus, etc) that controls your access to the route and session data. This is regardless of whether the data comes from a storage device (Trainz) or through the Internet (Netflix). The subscription you pay to Netflix allows the software, the "app", installed in your smart TV or tablet or streaming device to access the streaming data.

Trainz routes, sessions, and all its assets are just data. The streaming TV images are just data. Both require software. With Trainz you can have a choice of software that requires a subscription to work (run the routes and session) or software that does not. Likewise Microsoft offers a choice between subscription based games and office tools (Office 365) or non-subscription based (Office 2017, etc). With Netflix and others the software only works (displays the images and sounds) with a subscription.

In any case, either we take Microsoft's word and N3V's word that they will not go over to a subscription only business model, or we don't take their word. I don't believe any arguments here will convince those who have already made up their own minds.

My thoughts.

pware said:

The route and session that you are creating and running is just data, the "random series" you are viewing on Netflix or any streaming service is also just data.

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The processes that going into producing the 'just data' are considerable different.

amigacooke said:

The processes that going into producing the 'just data' are considerable different.

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I have no argument with that but if the software requires a subscription and does not find one then it makes no difference if the processes behind the data are simple or complex.

pware said:

I have no argument with that but if the software requires a subscription and does not find one then it makes no difference if the processes behind the data are simple or complex.

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But that's the nub of the situation, does it 'require' a subscription? Are there any circumstances that 'require' a subscription, or is it just a preferential model for businesses for cash flow reasons?

amigacooke said:

for cash flow reasons?

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That is probably the answer. A steady predictable cash flow from regular sales (and subscriptions) gives business the certainty to plan for the future and the resources to improve their products - for example to hire more programmers. Yes, there will be some that simply put the extra sales into bonuses for the boss but those types of businesses generally do not last long particularly in a recession (which may be coming).

One thing that the pandemic with its many lockdowns has shown is the fragility of businesses that rely heavily on seasonal or uncertain trade and uncertain cash flows. The lockdowns killed the trade and many businesses went under - but it could have been a run of really bad weather, a fuel crisis, food shortages, rising costs (sounds familiar).

Businesses that trade online, such as N3V, were more likely to be insulated from that and their sales may even have been boosted during the lockdowns by people being isolated at home with nothing to do. But the lockdowns are (hopefully) now over.

As Tony posted recently, the uptake of Trainz Plus and other subscriptions such as Gold Membership, has given them the financial security to employ more programmers and that must benefit everyone.

So I guess the subscriptions are much more beneficial. Honestly, looking at it now, Trainz+ isn’t such a bad deal, especially considering you get the latest version of Trainz, all the DLC and an FCT for the lifetime of your subscription. I’m not going to upgrade right now, but even when I start up a subscription, I’ll still be buying Trainz as new versions come out, just to have it. I still won’t make fun of those who’ve subscribed to Trainz+, as it is a smart business decision now that I think about it.

Regardless, it’s Trainz, and if anything, it’s better to have options than to have none at all. I will eventually subscribe to Trainz+, but right now, I’m fine with buying Trainz and DLC seperately, just to officially own them forever. Enjoy your day.

JCitron said:

I agree. S20 is far from finished and be glad it's not available now, otherwise you'd be quite disappointed and frustrated. Seriously, it's not ready for primetime much as Tony thinks it is and there are still lots of things that need more than a lick and promise. As was said before, this nifty new version will most likely be included in some future version of Trainz whether it's TRS22 SP 5, or TRS24. That's for N3V to decide.

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Not forgetting that Surveyor 2 has a considerable learning curve, again not everyone's ideal situation, hopefully things may become easier with future development, as it did with TurfFx which was pretty confusing on it's initial release as was the UDS which, still is confusing some people!

However, on the positive side, learning new stuff keeps one's brain active especially for us older trainzers.

clam1952 said:

Not forgetting that Surveyor 2 has a considerable learning curve, again not everyone's ideal situation, hopefully things may become easier with future development, as it did with TurfFx which was pretty confusing on it's initial release as was the UDS which, still is confusing some people!

However, on the positive side, learning new stuff keeps one's brain active especially for us older trainzers.

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Very true, Malc especially on the latter point. This is one of the reasons why I enjoy beta testing because it keeps my brain cells dancing.

All I see are comments on the cost recovery processes for the product. Unless someone, has another way to do it (with a balance sheet as proof), I am OK with the current system. I may even go Gold, not because of the benefits, but as a thank you.

You get what you Pay For.

-AND- a U.S. Navy Standard - "A bitching crew is a happy crew".. That may sound odd, but crew silence means a mutinous PLOT IS AFOOT.