This. 100%. I alluded to it somewhat in my post but you've hit the nail on the head. This is the biggest reason I'm willing to pay an extra $12 annually - virtually zero headaches.
An Open Letter to N3V
- Thread starter jacksonbarno
- Start date
This. 100%. I alluded to it somewhat in my post but you've hit the nail on the head. This is the biggest reason I'm willing to pay an extra $12 annually - virtually zero headaches.
Southern1581
Pineapple approved!
So, to sum up as best I can (forgive me if I've misunderstood something, it is incredibly late here and I probably should've called it a night a few hours back, I am for sure becoming sleep deprived), from the perspective of N3V, the subscription service is being run more akin to crowd funded development, with the reward being early access to in dev tools and some other extra goodies. The features developed from the additional revenue flow are then made base in the next version of Trainz, which would then presumably have its own set of new features under the subscription service. So, for example, a hypothetical Trainz 2025 would include Surveyor 2.0 by default, and the subscription end would be able to test expanded skyboxes or something along those lines.
Put in that particular framework, it does put the subscription service in a more positive light, and by the time the next version of Trainz is due to come down the chute, I think it would become a lot more palatable since these features will come to the base game and you can choose to pay annually to get even more. However, that still leaves Trainz 2022 in an awkward position of basically being a better optimized version of the previous game without having any real major feature improvements. 2019 had pbr and the new lighting system, TANE had its own lighting improvements, new CM, post processing, etc., and 2022 has...bug fixes. Not to discount the efforts that go into squashing bugs and giving the game some badly needed optimization, I know y'all have worked damn hard to make that happen, but the way 2022 has landed in this concept leaves a lot of us feeling like we need to enter the subscription service to be able to enjoy the full game because without Surveyor 2.0, this full game release does feel rather underwhelming. I think that's what a lot of us are worried about, buying what is effectively an unfinished game and having to pay more to get a complete version, especially with so many major releases of other games coming out recently in a blantantly unfinished state and relying on patches to complete the game down the road. That is a fate I think I can safely say we all want to see Trainz avoid. I know at the end of the day it's down to us to determine what value we see and vote accordingly with our wallets, I just hope that the limbo it feels like 2022 has landed in doesn't affect how it ends up performing sales wise, since as you said, the worst thing that can happen to trainz is there's no more development of trainz.
For me for the moment, the get TRS22 and sub for the new features vs just stick with TRS19 SP5 debate isn't yet relevant, personal storage issues on my pc mean that I haven't yet installed my copy of 19 on account of just not having enough room for another 1/3 to 1/2 TB Trainz build once I have all my content ported over, but, that debate will affect me eventually as well, so I figured I'd take part in the talks here since I'm just as concerned as everyone else here with ensuring the longevity of the most flexible train sim on the market and the community that supports it.
I would like to take the time to thank you for taking the time to respond to us, I will say I have gained a lot of respect for you through your willingness to take the full letter at face value, take each point and provide a response to it. You could've pretty easily chosen to carefully skirt around the issue with a fairly generic reply and saved a lot of headache for yourself, but you didn't, and I for one do appreciate that greatly. Once again, feel free to correct me if what I've gathered above is in any way incorrect, I just wanted to try and condense what you've said down into something a bit easier to digest and add my own comments and feelings to the matter, as seems to be the theme of this thread so far.
Sean (Southern1581)
amigacooke
Well-known member
I think that neither Windows 11 or Ventura will have an additional cost as an upgrade?
amigacooke
Well-known member
As N3V continue to offer the option to purchase or to subscribe, I have no particular complaint with the present situation, it seems like an attempt to try to please everyone.
At present I have hopes for a TRS22 Platinum that will hopefully include Surveyor 2. I still have no intention to use the subscription models as they seem to me (generalisation alert) to be paying to get access to the latest (beta) versions and therefore paying extra to beta test.
Your mileage will almost certainly vary
At present I have hopes for a TRS22 Platinum that will hopefully include Surveyor 2. I still have no intention to use the subscription models as they seem to me (generalisation alert) to be paying to get access to the latest (beta) versions and therefore paying extra to beta test.
Your mileage will almost certainly vary
FootplatePhil
Trainz Tragic since 2002
I thought the OP's post was well considered and well presented. As was Tony's reply. This has been a great discussion. I have a couple of thoughts I would like to add..
I have previously (a few years back) commented to the effect that each release of Trainz provides incremental change (with the possible exception of TANE, which was a noticeable upgrade). This was never meant to be a criticism. I could equally say this about the my children (when they were children). Sometimes it is only when you look back that you see the great change that has happened over time.
Annual licensing for software has been around since the very early days of computers. I am now long retired, but at one stage in my career I worked as a mainframe systems programmer. Annual licensing fees for mainframe software was the norm (at rates many, many times the annual NV3 fee!). It was considered normal business practice. Software development is labor intensive, and expensive. I cannot recall the licensing fee model ever being referred to as predatory in that context. In return for the annual fee users received regular maintenance, 'hot fixes', and (usually) 'free' updates.
NV3 provide the choice of purchasing a one-time license for their periodic 'line in the sand' product update (but still with free maintenance updates). Or choosing to pay a slightly higher price for early access to their ongoing development efforts. Everyone is a winner!
Phil
I have previously (a few years back) commented to the effect that each release of Trainz provides incremental change (with the possible exception of TANE, which was a noticeable upgrade). This was never meant to be a criticism. I could equally say this about the my children (when they were children). Sometimes it is only when you look back that you see the great change that has happened over time.
Annual licensing for software has been around since the very early days of computers. I am now long retired, but at one stage in my career I worked as a mainframe systems programmer. Annual licensing fees for mainframe software was the norm (at rates many, many times the annual NV3 fee!). It was considered normal business practice. Software development is labor intensive, and expensive. I cannot recall the licensing fee model ever being referred to as predatory in that context. In return for the annual fee users received regular maintenance, 'hot fixes', and (usually) 'free' updates.
NV3 provide the choice of purchasing a one-time license for their periodic 'line in the sand' product update (but still with free maintenance updates). Or choosing to pay a slightly higher price for early access to their ongoing development efforts. Everyone is a winner!
Phil
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You're not the first to mention that and I got so tired of testing betas that I threw in the towel long ago. I might download a beta but only for curiosity's sake since I would have no intention of committing something like a route to an unstable beta.
I have several software subscriptions and none of them have version numbers like 2019 or 2022. Their version number are just a series of number streams. TBH, I have no idea of the versions of those software packages other than I know I have the latest version. Maybe N3V should stop marketing old versions and just sell the latest, with or without extras.
Trainz+ was really an economic no-brainer for me, despite being reluctant about software subscriptions in general.
It provides access to new features and capabilities; there's always the latest betas to explore and to provide feedback on the future development of the product; includes a First Class Ticket; Plus I took advantage of the earlier offer to 'keep TRS22 forever'.
In practical terms, this has meant I have had the opportunity to participate in and evaluate Multi-Player Server and Surveyor 2.0 - both worthy new developmental additions to the simulator. Neither is 'done' yet, but to have the opportunity to help shape the future development of these features is priceless.
Hat's off to Tony and the team for their customer-centric comms, too. The Discord channels for Creators, MPS beta-testers - and the like - are superb extensions to the Trainz learning community offerings and allow incomparable global SIG community dialogue for Trainz users.
My current PC build (117669) is solid and dependable despite it being a beta build. It is smooth to operate and largely error free. Performance on the same hardware is demonstrably superior to TRS19-Platinum, which I still consider to be a great-value product.
We are very fortunate to have such a strong community supporting an increasingly more capable and performant Railroad Simulator - and for that we can thank Tony_Hilliam and N3V.
It provides access to new features and capabilities; there's always the latest betas to explore and to provide feedback on the future development of the product; includes a First Class Ticket; Plus I took advantage of the earlier offer to 'keep TRS22 forever'.
In practical terms, this has meant I have had the opportunity to participate in and evaluate Multi-Player Server and Surveyor 2.0 - both worthy new developmental additions to the simulator. Neither is 'done' yet, but to have the opportunity to help shape the future development of these features is priceless.
Hat's off to Tony and the team for their customer-centric comms, too. The Discord channels for Creators, MPS beta-testers - and the like - are superb extensions to the Trainz learning community offerings and allow incomparable global SIG community dialogue for Trainz users.
My current PC build (117669) is solid and dependable despite it being a beta build. It is smooth to operate and largely error free. Performance on the same hardware is demonstrably superior to TRS19-Platinum, which I still consider to be a great-value product.
We are very fortunate to have such a strong community supporting an increasingly more capable and performant Railroad Simulator - and for that we can thank Tony_Hilliam and N3V.
amigacooke
Well-known member
The only potential downside I can think of is that N3V may be losing potential beta testers who are not prepared to pay extra to do so. Unless there is another route to beta testing?
You are not comparing Apples to Apples. Most people who buy from N3V don't just pruchase the main app (TRS22). They more than likely purchase other things like a FCT and DLC. I just sat down and priced everything out. Why don't you try it just as an experiment?
I based everything on a single yearly payment. Compare 1/3 of the app cost (TRS22) (new app to buy every 3 years), a FCT, one "major" route, one "minor" route, and one nice loco. That total comes out to the same yearly price as Gold subscripton. So if you buy the app only then you are correct. The subscription is a waste of money. But if you purchase more than what I list, a subscription will save you money.
Why can't people see/admit that it is up to the customers buying habits? Everyone misses the fact that Gold and Silver includes a lot more than just TRS22 by itself. You cannot compare an outright purchase with a subscripton and to do so is very misleading. Believe me, I am not advocating either way. A person should do what works for them. But we need to be honest about it.
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lovetrainzloathen3v
New member
Same here, not much i want on the Content Store. But it is made available through my Gold membership.
I get an FCT (not always good speeds though). Access to new in game content and new features, before the masses.
Plus a copy of TRS22, all for the reasonable sum of £12+ a month. Which i can cancel at any time and return to at any time.
So there isn't the Sword Of Damocles, hanging over your head. To commit to anything long term.
I get an FCT (not always good speeds though). Access to new in game content and new features, before the masses.
Plus a copy of TRS22, all for the reasonable sum of £12+ a month. Which i can cancel at any time and return to at any time.
So there isn't the Sword Of Damocles, hanging over your head. To commit to anything long term.
Tony, just keep going as you are. Only deviate if your accountant sends up warning flares. Once you allow customers views to run your business it is time to head for retirement in Fiji. They should be considered, but the monthly reports have higher value. Respond "gently" to the expressed needs but do not make any significant changes. This is an artificial bump in the road.
Do you want a predctanle monthly revenue stream or will you become dependent upon new sales and the marketing that requires. Your product is mature. Stay the course - one time $$ for purchase. An annual renewal. Predictable subscription income so you can borrow money for financing product developments.
Keep it simple. Keep it clear. Keep it predictable.
Do you want a predctanle monthly revenue stream or will you become dependent upon new sales and the marketing that requires. Your product is mature. Stay the course - one time $$ for purchase. An annual renewal. Predictable subscription income so you can borrow money for financing product developments.
Keep it simple. Keep it clear. Keep it predictable.
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Beta testing does take some stamina and sometimes nerves of steel. N3V have always, to my knowledge, advised their beta testers to not continue development of their current work-in-progress routes in a beta version. Although I have often thought that the best way to test a beta is to use it for serious route development. I did that once and got "burnt", but at least I had pre-beta backups.
From their Trainz Store site you can buy older versions at greatly reduced prices - T:ANE at $US6.99 for example - but if that gets new users into the product who may later decide to purchase the latest version then it serves a useful purpose. I certainly have no complaints.
You got that wrong, Just content without any Trainz is Trainz Silver
Trainz Gold Plus has features, DLC and FCT and access to legacy versions you might not have at $129.49 / year
Trainz Plus which is cheaper just has the features and FCT and again access to legacy versions you might not have but no DLC at $69:49 / year
Note the FCT is $34.69 per year and is included with Plus and Gold Plus so for Plus you are effectively paying $34.80 just for the TRS22 part and £34.69 for the FCT.
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Very True.
I have bought most of Trainz versions and have had great fun for many years and met some good people along the way.
I have dropped off on the forum for a few years from health reasons, but still played with Trainz from time to time.
but will not be paying into the annual fee of Trainz 22
I myself have been waiting a long, long time to see the diesel/fuel having run down and needing to be topped up in stations and having the ability to turn all engines off and not just some payware engines i have bought separately.
When this will ever happen ,I do not know as it should have been the first ever ideas implemented surely.
But i won't hold my breath as i believe it will never happen
I have bought most of Trainz versions and have had great fun for many years and met some good people along the way.
I have dropped off on the forum for a few years from health reasons, but still played with Trainz from time to time.
but will not be paying into the annual fee of Trainz 22
I myself have been waiting a long, long time to see the diesel/fuel having run down and needing to be topped up in stations and having the ability to turn all engines off and not just some payware engines i have bought separately.
When this will ever happen ,I do not know as it should have been the first ever ideas implemented surely.
But i won't hold my breath as i believe it will never happen
Trainz 22 does not involve an "annual fee". You can buy it outright with a single one off purchase, no further payments required.
That is the problem when you have a game (sorry, I meant "reality simulation") that has a large and very passionate fan base. Each subgroup insists that their "must have and cannot do without feature" has to be given absolute top priority for immediate implementation in the very next release over every other subgroups "must have and cannot do without feature". The list is almost endless. A selection from posts I have read these last few weeks:-
- more realism (what that means varies widely between groups)
- better AI
- working train timetables
- accurate sunrise/sunset times
- dispatcher control
- bring back the onscreen undo/redo buttons
- fix night lighting
- remove car horns at grade crossings
- diesel engine startups and refueling (and my personal "must have" - why not real time coal fired steam startups from a cold boiler?)
If N3V had half the programming team that any of Microsoft, Apple, Adobe, EA, etc had, it could all be done "overnight". Tony recently announced that because of the take-up of Trainz Plus subscriptions he was recently able to employ two more programmers. Perhaps that is the answer.
Tony_Hilliam
Trainz Plus - enjoy Trainz from just 20 cents a da
pware - I agree except for the line "The list is almost endless". I would say "The list is endless!"
Grain of salt.
The Trainz Faithful will pay 20 cents a day for the experience.
Other users avoid this program. The endless CDP hunts, error checking, database rebuilds, which version is which, which version do I have?
That puts off a lot of users. The graphics improvements have a lot of people looking. The old model of milking a game engine out turns most people off.
N3V has a new game engine. Split the DLS off into an actual repository of assets that meet a certain criteria. Dump this never ending insanity. Draw a frickin line. Somewhere, anywhere. You can raise prices of the program, you aren't going to make Jack unless you attract new customers. End users are not going to put up with Trainz and the current emphasis on database management.
Grow a pair and start over. I would respect that and drop 70 bucks on a "new" version without all the garbage this current state of affairs brings. The milking of the DLS is on you, not me. If I wanted an asset from 2004, I would load it. N3V needs to take a hard look at itself. They are leaving a lot of potential users out to milk a DLS full of content that won't even pass their error checking routine if they weren't hidden as built in.
The Trainz Faithful will pay 20 cents a day for the experience.
Other users avoid this program. The endless CDP hunts, error checking, database rebuilds, which version is which, which version do I have?
That puts off a lot of users. The graphics improvements have a lot of people looking. The old model of milking a game engine out turns most people off.
N3V has a new game engine. Split the DLS off into an actual repository of assets that meet a certain criteria. Dump this never ending insanity. Draw a frickin line. Somewhere, anywhere. You can raise prices of the program, you aren't going to make Jack unless you attract new customers. End users are not going to put up with Trainz and the current emphasis on database management.
Grow a pair and start over. I would respect that and drop 70 bucks on a "new" version without all the garbage this current state of affairs brings. The milking of the DLS is on you, not me. If I wanted an asset from 2004, I would load it. N3V needs to take a hard look at itself. They are leaving a lot of potential users out to milk a DLS full of content that won't even pass their error checking routine if they weren't hidden as built in.