Small route merging rant.

Unfortunately there are a few in the community who like to pass out Payware wether it be with Routes or content uploaded to third party site's or put on the DLS and the rest of us have to suffer the consequences of their actions, This thread turns up every couple of week's and the few who do pass this stuff out are still here.
Mick.
 
matruck said:
Unfortunately there are a few in the community who like to pass out Payware wether it be with Routes or content uploaded to third party site's or put on the DLS and the rest of us have to suffer the consequences of their actions, This thread turns up every couple of week's and the few who do pass this stuff out are still here.
Mick.
Click to expand...

I get that Mick, but the same people can still do this anyway. In having the ability to edit payware and share on the DLS.

If i merge a route, it is useless to anyone else. If they do not own the assets and dependencies, to go with it.

Mike.
 
My post wasn't in reply to yours Mike I just mean it's always the the small minority here who stuff it for the rest and they keep getting away with it.
Mick.
 
lovetrainzloathen3v said:
EDIT: merging is part of the function of editing. Other wise why is it a function of Surveyor..........the editing tool.
Click to expand...

It may be splitting hairs but I would not consider merging two routes as "editing" - just as joining together two documents does not edit the originals.

In the merging process the first route loaded into Surveyor sets the route properties of the final product. The second route loses its session layers, session rules, driver commands, effect layers, etc. I tried this with two DLS routes by other creators and when I saved the merged route it automatically had my kuid code and was classified as Modified i.e. it was now my property and I could do with it what I liked, including uploading it to the DLS or a 3rd party web site as a "new" route.

The merge tool prevents you from merging a payware route for, I suspect, the same reason as given above. A merged payware route would lose its payware status and become "free game" for any pirate.
 
So would an edited payware route lose it's status, surely.

Plus in regards layers etc, as far as i know. If you merge the respective layers during the merge, everything is saved.

N3V cannot say it's ok to edit payware and upload it to the DLS, on the one hand.

But then say you cannot merge two payware routes, either to upload to the DLS or for personal use.

It's nonsensical and hypocritical. Of course what do i know, i have only been here for over 20 years and am not one of the blue eyed boys.

Mike.
 
pware said:
Just had a look at the Jointed Rail website. There seems to be only 8 contributors to their product range, with occasional content from affiliates (their words).

Looking at their 8 main contributors:-
soe

  • All have assets available on the DLS or built-in. A total of 1,781 current (not obsolete or out-of-date) assets.
  • 3 of them have assets available as DLC. A total of 59 current (not obsolete or out-of-date) assets.

So it seems that they have no problems with the way that N3V treats their customers otherwise, I am sure, they would not contribute to the DLS or DLC.
Click to expand...

What does having assets on the DLS or available for DLC have to do with treating anyone with respect or not treating them with respect? I fail to see where one condition implies the other is true or false. I said nothing about whether JR or its contributors had any problems with having items on the DLS or providing DLC on the Trainz store. My comment had to do with the treatment I received in doing business with the JR site. I would rather buy routes from JR than buy them from the N3V store and I have done business with both. I've expressed by feeling on the treatment I received from both in previous posts.

So what exactly do you mean by "know how to treat customers with respect"?
Click to expand...
It means just what it says. I felt I was treated with respect when doing business with the JR site.

Are you implying they don't treat customers with respect? Have you had any problems dealing with them? That's not been my experience.

Bob Pearson
 
Bob you have missed my point. The people at JR have placed their content, both freeware AND payware, in the hands of N3V so clearly they have no problems with the way N3V treat their customers, both as creators and as down loaders.

I have not implied anything about JR, certainly not in the way they treat their customers which I am sure is always with respect. I have never had any problems dealing with N3V for both freeware and DLC and have found that they have always treated me with respect.

I still don't know what your grievances with N3V are!
 
Fair play but if i want to merge a route with another route for my own personal use.

It's on my head if i balls them up, surely ? Your info in regards layers, applies to all routes. Freeware and payware, if i am not mistaken.

So not really relevant to the whole, payware merge fiasco, buddy.

Mike.
 
I look at it this way. For those of us who have used the Trainz program for close to twenty years or since the very beginning, we always could merge built-in and supplied routes. It was this feature that set Trainz apart from other programs. Heck, we could modify anything and everything. Many of these assets became the basis for many of our creations in the early days, or later on with more sophisticated routes we took parts that we liked from supplied routes and combined them. The old Tidewater Point Railroad (the original one) came in two parts for example, because it was "too big" at the time to fit on a single CD with everything else. For many of us, we felt this was better as a single route and merged the two together. With a bit of blending and other modifications, we then created an empire out of these two routes.

Then with TS12 SP1 HF4, things changed. N3V introduced the DLC packages, and it was nope can't do that anymore. There were other factors that brought this on including outright piracy and for that I understand why it was done, but this was an overnight change without warning which is typical of N3V management, so this shouldn't have been expected, but there was no thought put into this either, typical of N3V management. This then became a bigger issue with TANE and everything getting locked down including built-in assets, making route building difficult due to fear of including something that was built-in, and also because there was no way of telling whether an asset was built-in or DLC, or not.

At the time, when this Sh*** started hitting the fan, I came up with a suggestion which was duly ignored as usual. I saw crickets, probably because it was a solution, but it meant work on something that was considered finished, as usual by N3V management. Why not include some kind of key associated with those routes when installed? This could be a hidden file, or something similar that can't be removed. If it's removed, then the route can't be uploaded. The route can be cloned, which will include that file, the route can be merged in, but that also will contain that same file, and we can have our ability to merge and play around. In addition to the key-file, if we want to call it that, the current copy and paste can be blocked so that DLC and built-in routes that are blocked can't be copied and pasted baseboard by baseboard.
 
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Nice post John, what i am trying to say is and i am not very good at.

Merging has the same risks as editing payware. Yet N3V allows that and even allows edited payware on the DLS.

There is no risk of piracy with either. Because unless the end user also owns the required packaged assets\dependencies.

The edited or merged route, is useless to them. Or am missing something ?

Shall we just go back to the CE release, where the wheels didn't even rotate on the loco's and stock. :D

Mike.
 
JCitron said:
I look at it this way. For those of us who have used the Trainz program for close to twenty years or since the very beginning, we always could merge built-in and supplied routes. It was this feature that set Trainz apart from other programs. Heck, we could modify anything and everything. Many of these assets became the basis for many of our creations in the early days, or later on with more sophisticated routes we took parts that we liked from supplied routes and combined them. The old Tidewater Point Railroad (the original one) came in two parts for example, because it was "two big" at the time to fit on a single CD with everything else. For many of us, we felt this was better as a single route and merged the two together. With a bit of blending and other modifications, we then created an empire out of these two routes.

Then with TS12 SP1 HF4, things changed. N3V introduced the DLC packages, and it was nope can't do that anymore. There were other factors that brought this on including outright piracy and for that I understand why it was done, but this was an overnight change without warning which is typical of N3V management, so this shouldn't have been expected, but there was no thought put into this either, typical of N3V management. This then became a bigger issue with TANE and everything getting locked down including built-in assets, making route building difficult due to fear of including something that was built-in, and also because there was no way of telling whether an asset was built-in or DLC, or not.

At the time, when this Sh*** started hitting the fan, I came up with a suggestion which was duly ignored as usual. I saw crickets, probably because it was a solution, but it meant work on something that was considered finished, as usual by N3V management. Why not include some kind of key associated with those routes when installed? This could be a hidden file, or something similar that can't be removed. If it's removed, then the route can't be uploaded. The route can be cloned, which will include that file, the route can be merged in, but that also will contain that same file, and we can have our ability to merge and play around. In addition to the key-file, if we want to call it that, the current copy and paste can be blocked so that DLC and built-in routes that are blocked can't be copied and pasted baseboard by baseboard.
Click to expand...

I completely agree with you. I hate not being able to take the built-in stuff and mess around with it. Since I switch between a miser and a spender I saw the LoBN on the N3V store for cheaper. Little did I realize I was buying something I couldn't edit. That's the premise with Trainz, it's a virtual model railroad. Instead of making new driver thingies and stuff, make Surveyor better, with cloning, editing and more all able to be done. Imagine going to your local railroad club meet and trying to connect modules, and getting an error pop up in your face, stating that you can't. While I can still merge the LoBN 1 and Eagle River, I'm missing out on LoBN II.
 
Tony_Hilliam said:
Hi Bob. Your comment suggests that by protecting the work of our content creators we're doing something wrong, or worse, that by protecting their work, we're disrespecting customers. Do you think that is our goal? Do you suggest we just allow piracy?
Click to expand...
No Tony, I am not implying that protecting content creators is doing something wrong. In this particular case I'm implying I don't think you're doing it in a way that's fair to all. Although one might also assume I implied that you think every customer is capable of pirating content and will do so if given the chance, but that's not exactly what I meant. I am sure that I did not mean allowing the merging of routes would allow piracy. Because I don't believe that is the case.

But let me ask you this:

You (N3V) currently allow me to clone payware routes - the status of the cloned route becomes "modified payware". Such a route is now under my user ID. I can edit it and do what I like with it while it is on my computer, except I can't merge it with another route. How is that situation any different from the one I describe below:

I have a cloned (and maybe modified) DLC route on my Trainz installation as permitted by you. If I could merge the "modified payware" route with another route and the resulting merged route's status were set to "modified payware", how is that any different from the current situation where you allow cloning and modifying individual payware routes?

How are you protecting the work of the content creators in the one case but are not able to do it in the other? That's what I don't understand at the moment and that why I see it as not fair for all.

Bob Pearson
 
lovetrainzloathen3v said:
Nice post John, what i am trying to say is and i am not very good at.

Merging has the same risks as editing payware. Yet N3V allows that and even allows edited payware on the DLS.

There is no risk of piracy with either. Because unless the end user also owns the required packaged assets\dependencies.

The edited or merged route, is useless to them. Or am missing something ?

Shall we just go back to the CE release, where the wheels didn't even rotate on the loco's and stock. :D

Mike.
Click to expand...

That's right, Mike.

The packages still need to be there in order to work as a whole whether the route has been shared. I never thought of that aspect especially when a route contains assets that are specific to the route.

The paper wheels! I remember those oh so very well and came across some content with them in my install the other day. Speaking of the time, those were I think the best times for Trainz technology limited or not. We've lost our way here I think as things have gotten more complex. It's like a lot of things these days.
 
pware said:
Bob you have missed my point.
Click to expand...
No, I got it. I just didn't think it was that relevant. But then beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I think we're kind of vectoring off to different vanishing points.

I still don't know what your grievances with N3V are!
Click to expand...
Please re read the OP's 1st post regards merging of N3V DLC routes or more accurately the "non merging" N3V DLC routes.

Apparently, I'm not alone in my misunderstanding the advertising PR that cloning and editing does not actually include merging. I think 1 or 2 other post imply or discuss it. I found out the hard way and paid for something I was not entirely satisfied with. The route is great - the non merging part is not. Not the end of the world by any means. I vetted my own frustration about this policy maybe 2 years ago. I just see some reasonable questions the OP has made that I haven't had answered to my own satisfaction in the last 2 years or so.

Clearly I've supported the N3V franchise in the past and continue to do so - check my time line.

But there is really no reason for me to explain anything here. You can read my reply to Tony if you feel the need for more.

Bob Pearson
 
JCitron said:
That's right, Mike.

The packages still need to be there in order to work as a whole whether the route has been shared. I never thought of that aspect especially when a route contains assets that are specific to the route.

The paper wheels! I remember those oh so very well and came across some content with them in my install the other day. Speaking of the time, those were I think the best times for Trainz technology limited or not. We've lost our way here I think as things have gotten more complex. It's like a lot of things these days.
Click to expand...

Thank you for clarifying that point about the required assets, John.

Yeah the paper wheels, hehehehehe. Agree buddy a lot of the over complication. Just seems to be for the sake of it.

Mike.
 
lovetrainzloathen3v said:
I get that Mick, but the same people can still do this anyway. In having the ability to edit payware and share on the DLS.
Click to expand...


Just to confirm for you, editing a 'payware' route (ie a route marked as payware in Trainz) will result in what is essentially an alias of the original route being saved. This edited route is also marked as payware, and cannot work in any way without the original being installed; this does mean the edited route can be redistributed (depending on the author's license, although the intention of this functionality is to allow this to be less restrictive :) ), and anyone wanting to use it will still require the original route be installed. Not just dependencies, but the actual original route.

Unfortunately when merging routes, the data required for this cannot currently be merged. This would mean that it would be very very easy for those wishing to pirate payware routes (And this has been an increasing issue in recent years from what I've seen in the community, including a very recent case of a user redistributing several routes from a content group within a larger route as their own...) to simply circumvent the payware locking of the route.

It's worth noting that if a creator does want to allow the route to be merged (and to be re-shared on the DLS without requiring the original route for it to work...) they can simply elect to not mark the route as payware when submitting a DLC pack; but from what I've seen the majority of payware route creators would much prefer to avoid their route being redistributed for free :)


One thing that I'm surprise no one has suggested. Has anyone actually tried contacting the author of the route you want to merge, to see if they might be willing to provide a version that can be merged for your own use? Their answer might tell you if they want to support this or not as well :)

Regards
 
ZecMurphy said:
One thing that I'm surprise no one has suggested. Has anyone actually tried contacting the author of the route you want to merge, to see if they might be willing to provide a version that can be merged for your own use? Their answer might tell you if they want to support this or not as well :)

Regards
Click to expand...

I have no idea if that'll work for me for two reasons:
1. It's a JR route.
2. The creator is Wearsprada, who likely has bigger things to worry about than some guy who wants to merge a route in a train simulator.

I'll likely buy the LoBN 1 and merge that with Eagle River and buy the LoBN 2 at a later date.
Still a good idea though.
 
DARTrider said:
...
I'll likely buy the LoBN 1 and merge that with Eagle River and buy the LoBN 2 at a later date.
Still a good idea though.
Click to expand...
That's what I did with Coal Country. I bought a 2nd copy from JR (when it went on sale) because their versions can be merged. Just follow the restrictions and permissions in the license. Typically without specific permission for the route, no part of it before or after merging can be redistributed. It has to stay on your computer.

N3V's setup that allows redistribution of payware routes on their DLS (if permitted by the author) is actually a better choice in some cases but until they can find the time to update the permissions for merged routes even if it means you have to merge in a special order I'll look elsewhere for payware routes. I don't buy that many - there are a lot of excellent freeware routes out there on the DLS and 3rd party sites that have very attractive licenses.

Bob Pearson
 
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