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Thread: Default Session Added When Saving?

  1. #1
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    Question Default Session Added When Saving?

    If I add a new asset and Save, I am asked if I want to save the Default Session. The checkbox is checked so I assume that this "suggested" option. I assumed that the existing Default Session would be updated. But, a new Default Session is created, adding to my collection of Default Sessions from similar activities. Why isn't the existing Default Session updated instead of adding a new (cluttering) Default Session?
    Dick near Pittsburgh, Pa. i5-2500K 4.0ghz, 8gb memory, GTX1060 3gb video card. 117669 116912.

  2. #2

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    Because you chose to edit the route only. A new default session will be created every time you open only the route. To avoid new default sessions you need to use the edit session.

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    Uncheck the box and chose Do not save session if you don't want to create a new session. In other words, all you did was move a tree and don't want to create a new session for that. When you exit from the route, you may or may not be asked to save a session anyway and you can hit escape or press cancel. It's been this way for quite sometime.
    John
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    The lingering problem is that N3V "suggests" that you opt for a new session. Perhaps they could reverse that. Yes, that does require more knowledge and thought since the suggested pre-selection is now ,missing.

    That whole session structure just seems a pitfall for new customers. Two flavors of sessions will be a constant issue for new customers. N3V will say that as more people adapt to differentiating between the two styles of sessions, the customer community will quickly inform new customers of the characteristics of the sessions, their application and management.

    Uncheck the box and Save. Except when ????????. That is still a question for me. When do you check the New Session box?

    Pware, once said that this program requires discipline. Very True.
    Last edited by boleyd; May 25th, 2022 at 10:12 AM.
    Dick near Pittsburgh, Pa. i5-2500K 4.0ghz, 8gb memory, GTX1060 3gb video card. 117669 116912.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by boleyd View Post
    If I add a new asset and Save, I am asked if I want to save the Default Session. The checkbox is checked so I assume that this "suggested" option. I assumed that the existing Default Session would be updated. But, a new Default Session is created, adding to my collection of Default Sessions from similar activities. Why isn't the existing Default Session updated instead of adding a new (cluttering) Default Session?
    I keep it to some simple rules.

    When editing a Route, never save a session, it always suggests 'Default' something, but never save it. If you see 'Default' in your Sessions, Delete it.

    When editing a Session, never save the Route. The dialog will pop up and look like your in the Route, but your really in the session, so be carefull here, could loose time in editing.

    It's a matter of layers outside what you think of layers, but on a programmatic level. BTW, IMO
    Last edited by Christopher824; May 25th, 2022 at 11:00 AM. Reason: spelling
    If it's not broke, don't fix it.


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    To add to the advice above, there are some additional factors that will need to be considered.

    Many scenery assets actually have their properties stored in the Session, even when the assets themselves are in the Route (i.e. in a Route layer). Editing the properties of these assets is considered to be a change to the Session. These include:-
    • junction switches - the left/right switch direction is stored in the Session (but the switch default direction is stored in the Route)
    • industries - the commodities and quantities loaded/unloaded are stored in the Session
    • industry enabled wagons - the commodities and quantities carried are stored in the Session
    • consist locations - this is stored in the Session (TRS19 Platinum Edition, Trainz Plus and TRS22 only)
    • named route objects - while the name is stored in the Route, adding or changing the name is treated as a change to the Session


    Editing any of the above in a Route will result in a change to the Session and will generate a request to save the Session. Obviously, if you have edited the properties of an industry or rolling stock vehicle that loads/unloads commodities, then you should save the Session - but give it a distinctive name that is NOT "Default". For any of the other changes (e.g. changing a switch position) can be ignored unless you consider it important for the operation a Session. For example, switch positions may be important if you want to create a Session where the user can drive a particular loco out of a yard and onto a main line without having to manually set the switches or use an AI drive command that will set the switches for them.

    In all my many years of using a wide range of software, Trainz is unique in that it allows you to create and save a "parent document" (i.e. a Route) and then create and save "child documents" (i.e. multiple Sessions) that contain only the variations to the "parent document". I know of no other documents created by any software package that does this - others may enlighten me here. In Word and Excel, for example, you can create and save a document but what if you want to make another document which has a few minor changes to a single paragraph or additional formulae? You cannot simply save the changes only as separate documents. You must either make a separate copy of the entire document (with the changes) or replace the original with the new version.

    Prior to the appearance of Sessions in Trainz (TRS2004 or TRS2006? I forget which) if you wanted to create two different "aspects" (for want of a better term) of your route, one based on passenger operations and the other based on freight operations for example, then you had to create two complete and separate Routes that might differ only in their rolling stock assets.

    Yes, the Session system can cause confusion and as Boleyd has pointed out, it does take some discipline. The advantages it offers, in my opinion, far outweighs its disadvantages.

    My thoughts.
    Development: Trainz Plus - b117699, Win 10, 16GB, RTX 3060Ti
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by boleyd View Post
    The lingering problem is that N3V "suggests" that you opt for a new session. Perhaps they could reverse that. Yes, that does require more knowledge and thought since the suggested pre-selection is now ,missing.

    That whole session structure just seems a pitfall for new customers. Two flavors of sessions will be a constant issue for new customers. N3V will say that as more people adapt to differentiating between the two styles of sessions, the customer community will quickly inform new customers of the characteristics of the sessions, their application and management.

    Uncheck the box and Save. Except when ????????. That is still a question for me. When do you check the New Session box?

    Pware, once said that this program requires discipline. Very True.
    Have to agree with you. Took me a long time to realise that all the dire warnings the program gives about what will happen if you DON'T save, are rubbish and that bad things happen if you do save - like you won't see any of your trains and drivers. The default setting is confusing and, in most situations, plain wrong.

  8. #8
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    A strategy I have tried with "apparent" success is to just let the program create a new default. I assume that it is either a pure duplicate or that it does contain changed information. I delete all older Default sessions. I have seen no ill effects from this. Of course there is always a possibility that one, or more, routines does not follow that rule and sometimes puts new stuff into an older session.

    If I fail to clean out older Default Sessions I assume that the program still looks for only the newest. It would be nice to have someone tell the customers if it is ok to delete old default sessions. I feel more comfortable when I see only a default and a standard Session on the bottom line.
    Dick near Pittsburgh, Pa. i5-2500K 4.0ghz, 8gb memory, GTX1060 3gb video card. 117669 116912.

  9. #9
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    This only has gotten worse as the program has matured. I use the KISS method of anything for routes is done on the route editor and I then go back and create a base operating session where I edit the parameters for anything that needs it. I then use this base session to generate all other sessions for driving.

    The problem we run into now is the route is considered a separate entity to the session and vice versa even though the session is of course dependent upon the route in order to exist. The MPS environment does completely away with the separate session and operates like UDS is on 100% of the time allowing the trains to be assigned drivers and operate while other parts of the route are edited. This is sort of what UDS is like on the local level, but it doesn't quite get there as it should. Perhaps this is the way Trainz on the desktop as well and the idea of a separate operating session will eventually become an option rather than a requirement to run our railroads. The driver setups and all the existing commands will be associated with the route rather than a separate session. While this works for a single setup, there may be an optional setup to allow for additional driver sessions based on the original setup.
    John
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by boleyd View Post
    It would be nice to have someone tell the customers if it is ok to delete old default sessions. I feel more comfortable when I see only a default and a standard Session on the bottom line.
    My strategy has always been that if I see a Session named "Default" attached to one of my development Routes, I immediately delete it. If a Session is important enough to be saved than I always give it a unique name when saving. From then on I will load the Session into Surveyor when I need to edit something in the Session. If I just load the Route for editing then I DO NOT save the Session unless I am creating a new Session with its own unique name.

    Quote Originally Posted by JCitron View Post
    .... The driver setups and all the existing commands will be associated with the route rather than a separate session. While this works for a single setup, there may be an optional setup to allow for additional driver sessions based on the original setup.
    Many creators only make a single Session for their Route and this would work for that. But I rarely create just one Session per Route and the above proposal would mean that the first Session created would contain many items (e.g. rolling stock), driver commands, rule settings, etc that would not be wanted in any subsequent Sessions. That, for me, would result in a mess that could make it all unworkable.

    Better, in my opinion, to keep the current system.
    Development: Trainz Plus - b117699, Win 10, 16GB, RTX 3060Ti
    Testing: Trainz Plus beta - b117669, Win 11, 16GB, RTX 3050Ti

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by pware View Post
    My strategy has always been that if I see a Session named "Default" attached to one of my development Routes, I immediately delete it. If a Session is important enough to be saved than I always give it a unique name when saving. From then on I will load the Session into Surveyor when I need to edit something in the Session. If I just load the Route for editing then I DO NOT save the Session unless I am creating a new Session with its own unique name.



    Many creators only make a single Session for their Route and this would work for that. But I rarely create just one Session per Route and the above proposal would mean that the first Session created would contain many items (e.g. rolling stock), driver commands, rule settings, etc that would not be wanted in any subsequent Sessions. That, for me, would result in a mess that could make it all unworkable.

    Better, in my opinion, to keep the current system.
    I agree and agree on both statements made. When I see a default session, I delete it. That became a problem I think in either TS2010 or TS12 and I made a post regarding that so many years ago now. My post was titled So will the real Default Session stand up? or something like that.

    Yes, this would work fine for a single session, but for those of us that create more than one, this does present a problem. Right now, things work but like everything we have with this program it's not completely finished. In some ways it's like a house always being renovated. The bathroom may work and look pretty but the sink and tub still need replacing and have needed replacing for a decade. Moving to the kitchen, it's the same with old lighting and old stove and fridge while the homeowner replaced the floor and backsplash behind the stove and sink a decade ago.
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
    Trainz User ID: 124863
    Trainz-PLUS: 117669

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