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Thread: N3v3rf1x3d

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by pware View Post
    I do not doubt your words but that is not the case according to posts by others in these forums in regard to PBR. TurfFX, like SpeedTrees, is a third party product and would have the same issues, good and bad, regardless of where it is used.

    The caveat, of course, is how much freedom does a particular game/simulation allow its users when setting the application parameters (of which there are many in TurfFX and Clutter) when using these addons?
    Part of the issue is the implementation of these technologies by the developer and the understanding of how to implement them with the caveats that come with them.

    Speed Trees for example have been a blessing and a curse. They're pretty trees, great for parks and properties in towns, but look terrible in the forests. What we need is tangled branches more than perfect ones that even the shrubs and bushes don't provide. Having that kind of tree is more often found along road and track sides and along the edges of woodlands and marshes. We go instead for the old splines and billboards. While these used to work well in the past, they no longer do well in new versions because they look like cardboard cutouts. In the olden days, they were okay, but now they're worse with some being worse than others. Speed Trees too can and will eat up the resources. I've culled my own routes back quite a bit because I had too many trees in some locations due to poor performance. Heck, I live in a heavily forested region and like to model my area, but I need to thin out the forest a bit otherwise my machine stutters along.

    Grass, meaning Turf-FX works but as a user we have to understand it's limits. Due to the draw distance, meaning the culling and LOD built-in, it's not worth the effort of covering every inch of a hill and valley, and in many instances the grass turns into blobby clumps in the distance before it cuts out completely. The other issue too is too much of a good thing. We don't need to cover a lot to have a good grass coverage. What we see while placing the grass down isn't what we have afterwards. In some places on a recent route, I went back and pulled up some grass because it was too thick.

    The other issue here is understanding that this is a vertex-based procedural object that appears on the cross points of our infamous grid. This is why it's so difficult to control and keep within the lines just like our texturing. Knowing these details, allows me to plan ahead for those places where a texture and spline is a better alternative than fighting the big cursor and placing grass that neither fits nor looks right in that location.

    I noticed too that with lots of Turf-FX grass, things can develop a bit of a micro stutter as the GPU struggles to keep up. This may have to do with my video card and system being older, soon to be replaced, but there is that inherent hit on the performance that gives me a headache. To get around these issues, I keep my Turf-FX to about 5 or 10 meters on either side of the tracks, add in some bushes and call it a day in part because the grass disappears in the distance so what difference does it make to have it in the distance.

    In many ways, this is no different than using too many grass splines. I've opened up a few routes that brought my system to a crawl. The issue wasn't Turf-FX and was related to splines. There were so many grass splines covering the area that it caused my video card to have a fit. After deleting a ton of splines, with some areas having splines over splines, over splines, the frame rates increased substantially, and those splines I left looked plenty thick without the extra overhead.

    Then there's PBR. This is cool technology and I have seen both good and bad PBR in both Trainz and in other games. In Trainz we have both good and bad textures. The earlier textures were a bit too oversized causing weird things to happen. What I don't like about PBR in either case is the crawling textures. That jellyfish guts as I'm apt to call it is really offensive and detracts from the overall effects we're looking for. What I also don't like is how we have shadows through the textures to the ground underneath. This makes them look like one of those ca. 1970s Urethane paperweights we used to make with seashells and other objects in them. Trainz is not alone here. I ran into that issue on a map in Arma3. I recognized the anomaly immediately when I saw the grass splines sitting on jellyfish guts.

    I have come to the conclusion that PBR is fine on PBR-built routes right from scratch but retrofitting this on to an older route doesn't go as well as we'd think, and this leads to an issue that really annoys me. PBR does not mix well with other technologies either which we're bumping into all the time. There's nothing more disconcerting than finding an old route with now updated textures. The updated textures being once regular textures that have turned into PBR'd ones now burying the tracks, roads, and causing clear spots under things with jelly and urethane paperweights. This is more of a logistics and content issue, and it really needs to be addressed by the community and N3V. If an old texture has been updated to PBR, then the old texture should remain and a new PBR version uploaded. This will prevent textures from being replaced unknowingly by a user because they've updated textures in Content Manager when a new version is available.
    Last edited by JCitron; January 22nd, 2022 at 10:34 AM.
    John
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCitron View Post
    Grass, meaning Turf-FX works but as a user we have to understand it's limits. Due to the draw distance, meaning the culling and LOD built-in, it's not worth the effort of covering every inch of a hill and valley, .... The other issue too is too much of a good thing. We don't need to cover a lot to have a good grass coverage.
    My experiences exactly. In my current project some of the branch lines would see 1 or 2 trains a week so I have TurfFX grasses covering the track, which was accurate from some of the images from that period. But you have to play around with its many settings and parameters to get it to "look right". It is still early days with this technology as I only started using TurfFX and Clutter Effect Layers in TRS19, and now it seems that I may have to master the Water Effects layer in Trainz Plus and TRS22 as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by JCitron View Post
    I have come to the conclusion that PBR is fine on PBR-built routes right from scratch but retrofitting this on to an older route doesn't go as well as we'd think
    Again I am in agreement. I have decided to leave PBR alone until I start a brand new route. My current project is an update to an existing route filled with pre-PBR textures and, as you state, the two do not mix.
    Development: Trainz Plus - b117092, Win 10, 16GB, RTX 3060Ti
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  3. #18

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    Trainz should use Tressfx instead of TurfFX , since it's compatible with both AMD and Nvidia .

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by lackoo11111 View Post
    Trainz should use Tressfx instead of TurfFX , since it's compatible with both AMD and Nvidia .
    Tressfx is mainly used for realistic hair. I could not find any reliable sources mentioning it used as grass.
    I use PBR textures exclusively, mainly because they are sharper and better defined than standard textures. The only issue I have with them relates to using them on slopes (cuttings or trackbed) where the acid trip movement is most apparent. In an effort to combat the effect, I hide the slopes with either vegetation or a cliff spline where possible. Trackbed splines also have the advantage of being able to be placed high enough to negate the worst effects of PBR and allow TurfFX to be spread beneath the tracks which gives better coverage.
    Take Elder Scrolls Online as an example, it uses PBR textures, TurfFX and Clutter as well, but the main difference is that in gameworld development Zenimax/Bethesda/Microsoft have almost unlimited resources and professional developers, whereas with Trainz route development we are virtually amateurs playing with professional tools. I'd love to be able to say "Art department, I need a rockface 40 metres high by 100 metres wide to hide some wonky textures", but with Trainz I just trawl the DLS hoping someone has made that rockface, because I have no idea how to make one.
    cheers
    Graeme

  5. #20
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    Honestly given how it looks and how it behaves at close range on sharp geometry, I think PBR should NOT be used for ground textures at all (or the strength turned WAAAAAAAY down, if that's even a thing). I don't see the real benefit if they are far enough away not to look like unicorn barf. The degree of the effect reminds me of the first Technicolor movies, the way they were VERY over-saturated and trended toward primary colors.

    As if "IN TECHNICOLOR" wasn't enough, it HAD to be IN TECHNICOLOR!

    Meanwhile, because creators don't notice (one actually told me they never use cab view, so of course they don't see what I see when I do use cab view), old textures get "PBR'ed", and there is not way around it - I keep shaders below Ultra, which as I understand it, denies me the benefits of PBR on models as well as shutting off the effect on ground textures. To say nothing of it being a much hyped reason to get the latest Trainz.

    I also just want to share, I'm glad it's N3V now, even if it does remind me of how I felt the urge to vomit when Auran switched to the juvenile name of N3V3RF41L. I'm quite happy the various predictions that name conjured did not come to pass.
    Last edited by frogpipe; January 22nd, 2022 at 03:59 AM.


  6. #21

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    Well i hope the developer team of Trainz will update both TRS19 and TRS22 with the support of AMD FSR .

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by grazlash View Post
    Tressfx is mainly used for realistic hair. I could not find any reliable sources mentioning it used as grass.
    I use PBR textures exclusively, mainly because they are sharper and better defined than standard textures. The only issue I have with them relates to using them on slopes (cuttings or trackbed) where the acid trip movement is most apparent. In an effort to combat the effect, I hide the slopes with either vegetation or a cliff spline where possible. Trackbed splines also have the advantage of being able to be placed high enough to negate the worst effects of PBR and allow TurfFX to be spread beneath the tracks which gives better coverage.
    Take Elder Scrolls Online as an example, it uses PBR textures, TurfFX and Clutter as well, but the main difference is that in gameworld development Zenimax/Bethesda/Microsoft have almost unlimited resources and professional developers, whereas with Trainz route development we are virtually amateurs playing with professional tools. I'd love to be able to say "Art department, I need a rockface 40 metres high by 100 metres wide to hide some wonky textures", but with Trainz I just trawl the DLS hoping someone has made that rockface, because I have no idea how to make one.
    cheers
    Graeme
    Graeme you described very well the situation as is right now and funny how to cover up stuff not working but very true!
    The maker of the famous Canadian Rocky Mountains routes
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