May I start a petition to bring back the " Edit Trains " tool to " Driver Mode "

@Hilliam
Pitkin - you're offered the option to Save New or Overwrite. Is there an issue with using Save New?

Yes, I do not know how else to say the same thing. Either way you decide to save, the trains and whatever else are in new positions and values. if you are trying to develop a session for uploading some day, the original session is gone or not updated either way.

Phil - I agree, but I'd also wonder why you don't enable the industries to do the job properly (which means you don't need to use the rather clunky Properties method anyway (and far more realistic too)

That is part of session development. If one were omniscient, the session would be perfect the first time.

A better option would be writing a script that works by clicking directly on the car you want to load/unload

I wrote one, InstantLoadAtFocus. Phil wants to have users do things his way, and his method is more graphic. Also, some industries are either eye candy or just don't work very well.

Although not a solution for the missing Edit Trains, a new feature would solve the problem with UDS and session development. The surveyor seems to know which edits have been made, because it can unwind them with CRTL-Z (menu version sadly missing). So maybe a third save option:

Save New Session
Save Existing Session
Save Current Changes Only to Existing Session

HPL said:

Yes, but your "saved game" has not been saved as a saved game but as a session. Look in CM: its status is "Session". If you save again later without switching to Surveyor, the next save will be a "real" saved game ("Misc" in CM), or another session if you switch. You will quickly end up with a mix of saved driver games where some are "real" saved games and others are sessions. And if inadvertently you delete a "false" saved game, all the linked "real" will vanish with it. All that mess doesn't exist when train tab is in Driver.

Click to expand...

I thought that one of us must be doing something wrong because my saved test game is classified as Misc, not as a Session. It turns out that I was doing something wrong.

It works correctly in Trainz Plus SP4 - the saved game is a "saved game". It does not work in Trainz Plus SP5 beta where it is a Session.

It is a bug.

Reported.

Odd! As I am concerned the issue appeared as soon as the train tab was removed from Driver in Build 100980, so far before SP1!

Hi Tony --

"Phil - I agree, but I'd also wonder why you don't enable the industries to do the job properly (which means you don't need to use the rather clunky Properties method anyway (and far more realistic too)."

Wish it was that easy!~!

As almost everyone in the Universe knows by now, all of my routes and layouts are based on the assumption that real railroads exist to transport goods (and in Europe, passengers) from one location to another. Consequently my routes have a large number of industries where goods can be loaded and unloaded. Could I ask you to watch just the first few moments of this video and count the number of possible locations where freight cars can be loaded and unloaded, and consider the number of permutations of the actual commodities that could be used:


I could place something like a Multiple Industry New, which has the benefit of catering for all the commodities installed in the Trainz folder, at each location. And for each session I could configure each MIN. Unfortunately configuring a MIN is a time consuming process, as is actually testing that they work correctly. I got to the point where I decided that my life is just a little too short to go through the configuring and testing for each session, and that Chuck & Joe could do the task instead.

Your suggestion of just a mouse click on a freight car to load and unload it is excellent one. Preferably it should be able to load/unload commodities not specified in the config.txt file of the freight car. Is it possible that your highly experienced team of scripters could do this?
_____

One question from me. The layout in the video. It is one of two layouts that I submitted more that 12 months ago for possible inclusion in the proposed new Trainz Model Railroads. Are you at liberty to say whether this will come to fruition?

Phil

Yes, I do not know how else to say the same thing. Either way you decide to save, the trains and whatever else are in new positions and values. if you are trying to develop a session for uploading some day, the original session is gone or not updated either way.

Click to expand...

Are you sure?
1. Create a session "Session A" with a loco at Position A
2. Load the session and drive the train to Position B
3. Save As "Session B" (or if you haven't edited anything, just use "Save" then rename the session to B)
4. Load Session A - the train is in position A
5. Exit and load Session B - the train is in position B

Please advise where our cases differ.

To add my views to this discussion. QA have reported back to me on my bug report (earlier post #23) and I have conducted some tests in SP5 beta.

The trick is to always know which layer you are working with.

I loaded a route and session where all the consists are in a session layer.

Test 1:

• In Driver moved a consist to a new position
• used the UDS to jump into Surveyor and edited a ROUTE layer. A scenery item not track related.
• Saved the edit, Route/Session save dialogue box appeared, selected Do not save session.
• Used UDS to jump back into Driver
• Continued the Driver session for a few seconds, halted and saved. The Save Game dialogue box appeared.
• The original session was not altered. The game was saved as a dependent of the original session.

Test 2: Restarted the same original session. Noted that the route edit from Test 1 was present.

• In Driver moved a consist to a new position
• Used the UDS to jump into Surveyor and edited a ROUTE layer. A scenery item not track related.
• Did NOT save.
• Used UDS to jump back into Driver
• Continued the Drive session for a few seconds, halted and saved. The Save Game dialogue box appeared. Gave the game a different name.
• The original session was not altered and the route was unchanged from Test 1. The game was saved as a dependent of the original session.

Test 3: as for test 2, restarted the same original session.

• In Driver moved a consist to a new position
• Used the UDS to jump into Surveyor and edited a ROUTE layer. A scenery item not track related.
• Saved the edit, Route/Session save dialogue box. Saved the session as a NEW session.
• Used UDS to jump back into Driver
• Continued the Drive session for a few seconds, halted and saved. The Save Game dialogue box appeared. Gave the game a different name
• The game was saved as a dependent of the NEW session.
• The original session was not altered. In the new session the consist used was in the position it occupied when I jumped from Surveyor back to Driver

This is exactly how I have been using the UDS since it first appeared in TRS19 PE.

Tony_Hilliam said:

Are you sure?
1. Create a session "Session A" with a loco at Position A
2. Load the session and drive the train to Position B
3. Save As "Session B" (or if you haven't edited anything, just use "Save" then rename the session to B)
4. Load Session A - the train is in position A
5. Exit and load Session B - the train is in position B

Please advise where our cases differ.

Click to expand...

In theory, your steps should work fine, but there's a problem.

Here's a typical scenario:

We make a change during the session, i.e., driving along and finding bushes in the way. We jump back to Surveyor and move the bushes and save the route and not the session.

The changes are made and go about our business and quit. Coming back into the Route-editor and the bushes have been moved. In my test route, it was some trees I added because there's nothing much else in it, but the example is similar to this.

The problem as I see it is remembering to do a save-as when changes are made and many users end up doing a save, thinking that only the route has been saved. This is one more step to think about in the process that many new users would never consider, and sometimes even the seasoned ones as well.

Herein lies the problem... Once a session gets out of sync, meaning trains out of starting positions and saved, the session is hosed. The only recovery at this point is to restore from a backup if the user has done so. Us technically inclined, meaning those of us who worked in the IT industry are paranoid enough to make backups either to CDP, or as a save-as prior to editing, are able to get our sessions back to normal, but sadly for the majority of the users, this can be a total disaster and lots of frustration.

Since TRS19-Platinum and Plus, a reset driver commands has been added. While welcome for resetting the driver's command lists back to the beginning, this does nothing for consists that are now scattered all over the route and sometimes in positions that make recovery difficult. Once this command is issued, those drivers go through great lengths to create the worst Gordian knot we can encounter. The AI can be pretty adept at that anyway, except this can be worse.

It's for this reason I propose a reset driver option, or perhaps a combined command with driver commands. What this does, with a warning about breaking running sessions and losing points, is put the drivers back to the beginning without resorting to a reload from a backup. This option could be disabled by scenario writers so that this can't be done in those situations where it's not warranted.

Note: I discovered a bug while testing this TRS19-Plus.

If we use S1 to perform the same exact operation above, we end up with only a save-session option even though route-changes were made. This is far different from what occurred in the past. Performing the same steps in S2 was exactly as expected with the save-route options available.

It requires discipline. The same discipline as when adding scenery assets to a route and a session - you always have to know which layer you are working in. S2 at least has the active layer name on the screen in a palette/panel which S1 does not. As John pointed out, experienced hands know to make backups and (usually) have an established routine to follow which can avoid these problems - although I still slip up occasionally and that is where the backup is important.

I don't know what the solution is apart from gaining experience - often gained the hard way. I really do like the UDS feature as it speeds up development considerably.

Two simple things to implement now

May I add two simple observations? Very simple comments.

1.) If the "old" "structure" of displaying "sessions" and "game saves" were like they were before UDS a person would at least "see" that they are going wrong. Step one would be to go back to having "Routes," "Sessions," and "Game Saves" on different screens as before. Then if a mistake were made you'd at least see it right away. The current practice showing Sessions and Game Saves "as the same thing" (but different) is very confusing. I honestly don't know how a new user knows what's going on. Just look at the "confusion" here among the people who know the game. What chance does a newbie have? Or even an expert who gets distracted for a moment while working with layers and saves.

2.) Some better and additonal verbiage would be a help on the "save" panels. It's just not clear what is happening and to know what's being saved and whether to do a save, save as, etc..

Those two things seem simple to me. Quick to implement and a low chance of breaking things. Do these now while continuing discussion on other "fixes" for this issue.

Yes please bring it back!
I am just a driver - not a developer but more and more routes & sessions are appearing that require manual loading of the cars.
Put it in both places as long as it returns you to the pace of entry easily.

- wmm1216

Tony_Hilliam said:

Are you sure?
1. Create a session "Session A" with a loco at Position A
2. Load the session and drive the train to Position B
3. Save As "Session B" (or if you haven't edited anything, just use "Save" then rename the session to B)
4. Load Session A - the train is in position A
5. Exit and load Session B - the train is in position B

Please advise where our cases differ.

Click to expand...

****************************************
I am developing a session for a route. I do not want to change the route, only make a new session.

There are 4 trains at a station. 3 are AI, the 4th I plan to be driven by the user.

I start the session in driver.

3 of the trains scatter off to the winds.

My train zips along and I notice I would like to add a bush.

I switch to surveyor in UDS

I crate a new Session layer named myBushes, and add a thistle bush.

I want to save the session, but where do I save it so that the bush is there, but the trains are at the station?

I do not see any way to do this with UDS. I will be glad go be shown the way.

What I have to do is remember what I edited, then close the current UDS activity. Then open the original session and do the same edit.

So thus arises my claim that UDS is fine for those editing a "stream of consciousness" type world, but not for session creation where the plan is to release or reuse a session for yourself. Also great for those developing a route and don't care about sessions.

Pitkin and the many users asking this are right


There are 2 kinds of users
-Those that just drive, for those UDS is fine and adds to the fun
-Those that make content, routes and sessions


I keep all things totally separate and it neverfails
-Edit route, place/change items, edit the main route only, using route layers only, save the route only
-Edit session, put drivers, rules, schedules, trains only, using session layers only, save session(the original) only


Even limit myself to Build 100240 for all development/creating, because UNDO is on the top menu
no one ever asked to hide it in a menu or make it a keyboard combi thing.


Never understood or use the 2nd save.
Edit trainz is pure used to temp. change something to see if it is better,
then go back to the original session and edit that.


hope the developers see the confusion users have and act accordingly
greetings GM

Here's the thing, Tony, we are not discussing old surveyor vrs. new surveyor

Tony_Hilliam said:

I have heard "change it" but not why it needs changing. I'll need some help to understand the major issue(s) here.

Old system:

1. Create session
2. Place trains and rolling stock
3. Save session
4. Click Tools Menu > Quickdrive
5. Loading screen appears while Surveyor session is unloaded and Driver session is loaded
6. Begin driving
7. Click Tools Menu > Edit Trains
8. Trains tab opens and you can either change loads or place more trains etc
9. Close the Trains tab
10. Continue driving
11. Click Save
12. Either save over an existing Driver Session or save a new Driver Session
13. Continue driving
14. Exit
15. Choose to either save over an existing session or save a new session (or Don't Save)
16. You're now back in Surveyor
17. Exit Surveyor
18. Next time you want to drive, choose which session you wish to load (either the original or one of the saved options)

UDS system:

1. Create session
2. Place trains and rolling stock
3. Save session
4. Click Tools Menu > Drive Session
5. User Interface is instantly changed from Drive mode to Surveyor mode
6. Tap P to unpause andbegin driving
7. Click Tools Menu > Surveyor Classic (or S20, but we'll work with Classic here since everyone has that option)
8. Click the Train tab Edit Trains and either change loads or place more trains etc
9. Close the Trains tab
10. Click Tools Menu > Drive Session
11. Continue driving
12. Click Save
13. Either save over an existing Driver Session or save a new Driver Session
14. Continue driving
15. Exit
16. Choose to either save over an existing session or save a new session (or Don't Save)
17. You're now back in Surveyor
18. Exit Surveyor
19. Next time you want to drive, choose which session you wish to load (either the original or one of the saved options)

So which of these steps is causing the problem? Having two clicks to open the Trains tab instead of one? Alternatively you could use hotkeys and just hit Ctrl-F2 then F7 then P to get to properties.

If this was something done on a regular basis, then it would be a problem. I wonder if the problem is more "there are all these other tabs that I don't need right now "getting in the way"?

Of course the reason this was done is UDS opens up so many other options to edit session and/or route layer as well.

Click to expand...

we are discussing the difference between having a convenient tool to fix driving errors that only get saved in a "Driver Mode" progress game save or having to enter either type of Surveyor and risking accidently hosing-up our original Route/Session.

Speaking for myself, I'm a driver, the only thing beyond that is creating basic sessions and recently adding coaling towers and water tanks and fixing some bad industries with B13 industries and I still messed that up because the track and objects I added are not in the Route layer as they should be, so I know enough to be dangerous!

I assume that the better UDS is to become the only Surveyor going forward so why did you include both at this time? Could you not just as easily left the " Edit Trains " tool in the drop-down along with the UDS? That way us drivers could have the best tool for us and our much appreciated route developers could have the best tool for them, i.e. UDS.

Wild Willy the Wacko

There are two different problems discussed here. Edit Trains and using UDS. They intersect because of the expectation of the end result. My responses address Tony's posts primarily, involving UDS with session development. Since the end user now only has UDS and not Edit Trains, thus the intersection.

@WildWillyWacko
That way us drivers could have the best tool for us and our much appreciated route developers could have the best tool for them, i.e. UDS

As I have illustrated repeatedly, UDS is not

Respectfully: Yes, but remember it is just beta now.......

pitkin said:

@WildWillyWacko
That way us drivers could have the best tool for us and our much appreciated route developers could have the best tool for them, i.e. UDS

As I have illustrated repeatedly, UDS is not

Click to expand...

with input from you and others in the know, it should be improved.

Wild Willy the Wacko

Pitkin - your example introduces a non-train edit which isn't possible under the old system. Under the old system you would have to make a note of where to place the tree, save the game, exit, edit the route, save the route, reload the session and the tree would be there.

Under UDS you just save the edit to the route layer and "Do not save session". If you want to have a session without that tree for some reason, save it to a new route layer and hide that route layer in your other session. I think this covers your goal here doesn't it?

Anyway, I've now got enough information (I think) to review the whole process and work out with dev the best solutions.

Meanwhile, I hope people understand UDS a little better now and can see that it is possible to save your sessions without stuffing up the starting positions (or save them as a progressive session).

For me, UDS is great because I can build some stuff, place a train and hop straight into driver to test the section I built without waiting a bunch of time.

Hi Tony. Have been following this thread closely. I will now add my two bob's worth. In TANE SP4, the ability to edit trains is just the most convenient and easy to use tool. When in TRS19 I have to use UDS, I save but when i get back into the session, all my rules and settings have been lost. I cannot go back to what was. One workaround is to use DUS and re set all my rules, A total hassle when I have many on the go. So if your Dev team can please re-instate this tool, it would truly be greatly appreciated. Yes UDS is ok but edit trains is so much better for the driving experience. I do not use UDS for editing the route, rather I make written notes on what needs fixing, then exit the session and back into Surveyor. (Old school, but I prefer this method). Thanks for your willingness to hear us out.