May I start a petition to bring back the " Edit Trains " tool to " Driver Mode "

W

WildWillyWacko

Member
May I start a petition to bring back the " Edit Trains " tool to " Driver Mode "

I was reminded of another reason for this feature by this quote from Pitkin:

"This brings up and interesting point. Bulk commodities like coal fall from a tipple with dust effects, and dump into a grate somewhere. I recall a few other more or less realistic situations with logs. Otherwise, a railroad is not going to devote an engine and crew while a sawmill loads a bulkhead flatcar with lumber for hours. Same with boxcars.
Some large operations like steel mills had their own railroads. In model railroading, the owner slipped around hopefully un=noticed and placed or removed plastic "loads" amongst the cars.
I don't know that "Edit Trains" is any more or less realistic than industry tracks. A huge advantage, however, is that you know immediately whether the operation was successful (at least for visible commodities). I'm sure most of us can recall spending many hours over time staring at some industry track whilst nothing happens."

My much admired friend, Philskene, seems to prefer the somewhat manual method of loading railcars by using the " Edit Trains " tool. Now, we have to enter Surveyor Mode to access the " Edit Trains " tool and later when we exit our session we are asked to save a new session instead of just making a game progress save in Driver. And, the alternative is to accidently overwrite your original and loose your starting point in the session!

Maybe this won't bother Phil cause he doesn't make many mistakes but it sure bothers me!

Wild Willy the Wacko
 
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Yes, this is definitely a useful thing. I hate setting up industries and end up sticking to only those that have loads I can see such as passengers, sand, and coal. The rest of the time I use instant load because my trains carry "stuff" and I use my imagination for what they're supposed to really be carrying. I know there are alternative commands, but I generally use this one. While this works well for the bigger picture, there are times when it's a bit too much over the top and it removes the spontaneity of some session operations. These one-off operations are more like real life operations on a freight railroad where there are the normal through freights carrying the usual stuff, but then there's the local that needs to pick up or drop off the one-off.

In TANE SP3, the very much wanted Edit Trains appeared. This made adjusting commodities so much nicer. A yard of boxcars could quickly be loaded up without setting up everything ahead of time. If we wanted, we could empty a boxcar here, or a hopper there without extensive editing. It made the process of running our sessions a bit more fun because the spontaneity factor was finally introduced because we could have local switching doing the one-off car drop off and pick-ups without going through the preplanning that's needed for setting up a session.

Then UDS came along. While this is useful for other things, the convenience of just a quick train edit is now lost. Having this in addition to the UDS is useful, but the powers to be may see this as redundant. In real life, redundancy is also seen as a convenience factor and sometimes as a short cut for the quicker things that need to be done. In this instance, it's both because it allows us to quickly edit a train, consist, or a single freight car without going through the bigger hoops and circus act.
 
I'm glad to see that you somewhat agree !

JCitron said:
Yes, this is definitely a useful thing. I hate setting up industries and end up sticking to only those that have loads I can see such as passengers, sand, and coal. The rest of the time I use instant load because my trains carry "stuff" and I use my imagination for what they're supposed to really be carrying. I know there are alternative commands, but I generally use this one. While this works well for the bigger picture, there are times when it's a bit too much over the top and it removes the spontaneity of some session operations. These one-off operations are more like real life operations on a freight railroad where there are the normal through freights carrying the usual stuff, but then there's the local that needs to pick up or drop off the one-off.

In TANE SP3, the very much wanted Edit Trains appeared. This made adjusting commodities so much nicer. A yard of boxcars could quickly be loaded up without setting up everything ahead of time. If we wanted, we could empty a boxcar here, or a hopper there without extensive editing. It made the process of running our sessions a bit more fun because the spontaneity factor was finally introduced because we could have local switching doing the one-off car drop off and pick-ups without going through the preplanning that's needed for setting up a session.

Then UDS came along. While this is useful for other things, the convenience of just a quick train edit is now lost. Having this in addition to the UDS is useful, but the powers to be may see this as redundant. In real life, redundancy is also seen as a convenience factor and sometimes as a short cut for the quicker things that need to be done. In this instance, it's both because it allows us to quickly edit a train, consist, or a single freight car without going through the bigger hoops and circus act.
Click to expand...

I don't use it so much for loading and unloading but for replacing a favorite engine that I stupidly crash and for " cornfield meets " that don't happen often but I don't want to use the delete command to clear traffic. In that case I can use the " Edit Trains " tool to drag a passenger train back to behind a signal, add a " Wait 1 min. " command and the signal will clear for the opposing traffic so it can continue.

I also was able to use the " Drag " a consist tool to pull consists out of portals that were refusing to emit a whole consist! I tried to do that with the new process but it did not work, only the engine moved away from the portal mouth but the rest did not form the consist expected.

Guys like you seem to pull some weight around here, maybe this will gain some traction!

Wild Willy the Wacko
 
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WildWillyWacko said:
I don't use it so much for loading and unloading but for replacing a favorite engine that I stupidly crash and for " cornfield meets " that don't happen often but I don't want to use the delete command to clear traffic. In that case I can use the " Edit Trains " tool to drag a passenger train back to behind a signal, add a " Wait 1 min. " command and the signal will clear for the opposing traffic so it can continue.

I also was able to use the " Drag " a consist tool to pull consists out of portals that were refusing to emit a whole consist! I tried to do that with the new process but it did not work, only the engine moved away from the portal mouth but the rest did not form the consist expected.

Guys like you seem to pull some weight around here, maybe this will gain some traction!

Wild Willy the Wacko
Click to expand...

Indeed, it's great for untangling the unfathomable mess that AI get into.

I've never had luck with dragging stuck consists from the portals either and had the same result. I think it's the way the portals spit out the consists.
 
WWtW a very good suggestion and thanks for the post, i support this fully.

back to my 7th heaven.

y'all have a nice day

Roy
 
I have already stated that UDS is a solution for a narrow situation. Edit Trains needs to come back.
 
I have heard "change it" but not why it needs changing. I'll need some help to understand the major issue(s) here.

Old system:
  1. Create session
  2. Place trains and rolling stock
  3. Save session
  4. Click Tools Menu > Quickdrive
  5. Loading screen appears while Surveyor session is unloaded and Driver session is loaded
  6. Begin driving
  7. Click Tools Menu > Edit Trains
  8. Trains tab opens and you can either change loads or place more trains etc
  9. Close the Trains tab
  10. Continue driving
  11. Click Save
  12. Either save over an existing Driver Session or save a new Driver Session
  13. Continue driving
  14. Exit
  15. Choose to either save over an existing session or save a new session (or Don't Save)
  16. You're now back in Surveyor
  17. Exit Surveyor
  18. Next time you want to drive, choose which session you wish to load (either the original or one of the saved options)

UDS system:
  1. Create session
  2. Place trains and rolling stock
  3. Save session
  4. Click Tools Menu > Drive Session
  5. User Interface is instantly changed from Drive mode to Surveyor mode
  6. Tap P to unpause andbegin driving
  7. Click Tools Menu > Surveyor Classic (or S20, but we'll work with Classic here since everyone has that option)
  8. Click the Train tab Edit Trains and either change loads or place more trains etc
  9. Close the Trains tab
  10. Click Tools Menu > Drive Session
  11. Continue driving
  12. Click Save
  13. Either save over an existing Driver Session or save a new Driver Session
  14. Continue driving
  15. Exit
  16. Choose to either save over an existing session or save a new session (or Don't Save)
  17. You're now back in Surveyor
  18. Exit Surveyor
  19. Next time you want to drive, choose which session you wish to load (either the original or one of the saved options)

So which of these steps is causing the problem? Having two clicks to open the Trains tab instead of one? Alternatively you could use hotkeys and just hit Ctrl-F2 then F7 then P to get to properties.

If this was something done on a regular basis, then it would be a problem. I wonder if the problem is more "there are all these other tabs that I don't need right now "getting in the way"?

Of course the reason this was done is UDS opens up so many other options to edit session and/or route layer as well.


 
The problem comes in when you save a session when leaving Surveyor in UDS. You now overwrite your original session. If you don't care, then fine. But if you are developing a session, then UDS will not work. The original session you are working and wanted to edit is gone; trains are in a new position, loads are changed, industries different levels, etc etc etc. If you create a new session when leaving UDS surveyor, then the one you are working on is not changed, and you have to go back and open it in a new surveyor and try to remember what you did.

(Yes, I know, some clever poster devised a way to use session layers to get around this. But it seems that most of the posts about layers involve those who are confused with layers at even the most basic level). Also not clear in which layer some variables are stored, such as industry commodity levels.
 
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Hi Tony --

As you know, in several/many/most (tick as appropriate) of my Chuck & Joe sessions the player is required to undertake the role of Load Master and manually load or unload freight cars. I uploaded a coupler of videos to youtube to guide the player through this process.

This is pre-SP1:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v667xgTo0Fk&t

This is after SP1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HQPOaRmfeE&t

I think you must agree that the latter is a much more complex process. I'd certainly support the original poster's suggestion.

Phil
 
You now overwrite your original session
Click to expand...
Pitkin - you're offered the option to Save New or Overwrite. Is there an issue with using Save New?

Phil - I agree, but I'd also wonder why you don't enable the industries to do the job properly (which means you don't need to use the rather clunky Properties method anyway (and far more realistic too)

A better option would be writing a script that works by clicking directly on the car you want to load/unload.

Meanwhile I'd suggest using Ctrl-F2, F7, P then clicking on the car which reduces the pain somewhat.
 
pitkin said:
The problem comes in when you save a session when leaving Surveyor in UDS. You now overwrite your original session. If you don't care, then fine. But if you are developing a session, then UDS will not work. The original session you are working and wanted to edit is gone; trains are in a new position, loads are changed, industries different levels, etc etc etc. If you create a new session when leaving UDS surveyor, then the one you are working on is not changed, and you have to go back and open it in a new surveyor and try to remember what you did.

(Yes, I know, some clever poster devised a way to use session layers to get around this. But it seems that most of the posts about layers involve those who are confused with layers at even the most basic level). Also not clear in which layer some variables are stored, such as industry commodity levels.
Click to expand...

Which is why I use the "Save New Session" option. The original session is unchanged and you can continue working on the development and testing session. All of this is explained on the Trainz Wiki at https://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/How_to_Use_the_UDS_Interface
 
With UDS, you must switch from Driver to Surveyor to use the train tab. Then, to switch again from Surveyor to Driver to continue your ride. And when you decide to save, you are forced to save as a session, there is no way to save as a saved game only. No such a problem without UDS.
 
HPL said:
And when you decide to save, you are forced to save as a session, there is no way to save as a saved game only.
Click to expand...

I just tried it and I was able to:-

  1. Move from Driver to Surveyor
  2. Edit the Route (did not save but I could have saved the Route edit)
  3. Jump back into Driver (Driver was Paused)
  4. Unpause Driver and ran the game
  5. Save the Driver Game as per normal (CTRL S)

To check I exited Driver, selected the newly saved game and clicked Drive Session. It started at the pont where I saved.
 
pware said:
I just tried it and I was able to:-

  1. Move from Driver to Surveyor
  2. Edit the Route (did not save but I could have saved the Route edit)
  3. Jump back into Driver (Driver was Paused)
  4. Unpause Driver and ran the game
  5. Save the Driver Game as per normal (CTRL S)

To check I exited Driver, selected the newly saved game and clicked Drive Session. It started at the pont where I saved.
Click to expand...

Yes, but your "saved game" has not been saved as a saved game but as a session. Look in CM: its status is "Session". If you save again later without switching to Surveyor, the next save will be a "real" saved game ("Misc" in CM), or another session if you switch. You will quickly end up with a mix of saved driver games where some are "real" saved games and others are sessions. And if inadvertently you delete a "false" saved game, all the linked "real" will vanish with it. All that mess doesn't exist when train tab is in Driver.
 
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