British Steam New-Builds

Hi all,

In recent days, I have been far more interested in new-build steam locomotives than ever before. Sometime in the (hopefully near) future, I’d like to build a brand new British steam locomotive. However, there are three problems (other than the obvious lack of funding) that could stall it for many more years than it should:

1) I don’t live in Great Britain - I live in the United States
2) Even if I wanted to apply for British citizenship right now, I’m still a bit too young to do so, and
3) The vast majority of designs I’d like to build already exist.

So here’s my question: say, a few years from now, by some act of God, I win the lottery and can become a dual citizen of both the US and the UK, and can start making new-build steam locomotives. Say I decide to build a Black Five for a start - a good loco, looks nice, has a good amount of power, and one of Stanier’s most iconic designs. Would I be looked down upon for making a new-build of a class that already has 16 preserved? Or would the general public be interested to see a design from a bygone era that’s still working today, but improved upon? (Immediately gets AWS and TPWS, ETH, air brakes, welded construction, better fuel efficiency and capacity, etc.)

To those interested in British steam - what would you say if you saw a 17th Black Five? Or another Standard Class 8P? Maybe a replica of Great Northern before Thompson made it an abomination? Or how about the proposed (was it actually?) LYR Class 28, with the added pony truck? What are all of your thoughts?

Are you talking physical or models in Trainz?

If physical remember that it con only run for ten years before needing to be rebuilt which is expensive.

Thanks John

johnwhelan said:

Are you talking physical or models in Trainz?

If physical remember that it con only run for ten years before needing to be rebuilt which is expensive.

Thanks John

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I’m talking full-on, life size, physical steam locomotives. And yes, I am aware that mainline certification require ten-year overhauls, and that costs are pretty high. However, all I can do right now is dream… and maybe drive the locos I’d like to build in Trainz.

I'd say that probably any new build steam locomotive would be welcomed with open arms, but it's an incredibly expensive business. I don't see any reason you'd have to be a British citizen.

Can I recommend the A1 Steam Locomotive Trust as a reasonable template for any attempt you might want to make? Good luck!

I don't think you'd get much support for building new mainline locos of types that already exist. Building something like Tornado is a multi-million pound exercise and can only be done with a serious financial/business management plan. I think this is probably the reason that the A1 Steam Trust are so far the only group who have managed to build something for the mainline - they were one of the few groups who really appreciate that the financial side needs to be put before the actual engineering. The paperwork side of it is also very difficult and expensive, the group trying to build a Patriot have recently had to completely take there locomotive apart and scrap a large number of components because they weren't properly certified.

In order to do all this you need to guarantee income and you can only do that by offering something unique, not something you can already see on numerous other lines. There's also an argument as to whether we should be building any new-build locos at all - especially when there are so many locomotives rusting away in sidings awaiting overhaul - perhaps it would be better to rebuild them instead, or at least finance proper sheds/museums for them to be kept in.

As to the other aspects you mention: TPWS/AWS (and soon ERTMS) are already required for mainline steam. Most mainliners also have air-brakes (although a few still use vacuum); ETH there's not much point at the moment as most of the charter stock is still fitted with steam heat; Welded construction is increasingly used where new boilers are required, although fitting new boilers to standard gauge locos is quite rare. Improved capacity and efficiency is an interesting one, there seems to be a general reluctance to apply "modern steam" technology in this country, even on new builds, quite why this is I'm not sure...

If you want to get involved in the UK steam scene then there are hundreds of opportunities available at the various preserved lines and societies, but you have to be prepared to start at the bottom and work your way up, finding out how things work along the way. Only by gaining that kind of experience will you be able to persuade people to support any projects you might later become involved in. In general I think you'd be much better off supporting an existing group (who will welcome you with open arms, especially if you can provide money or volunteering time) than trying to set up new ones.

I see. Well, thank you for informing me for my future, Ed (in case I would like to pursue this career).

I have a question, however - British steam enthusiasts, what “extinct” steam locomotives would you like to see back on the mainline, with a variety of inprovements? Personally, an LMS Rebuilt Patriot & Jubilee, LNER W1 & Thompson L1, the GWR “Great Bear”, and the LBSCR L Class & SR N15X would be quite interesting projects to tackle in the future. We can only hope, though.

Thank you to thise who have responded with their opinions, and information on mainline steam. I really do appreciate it.

Aight, I understand that this forum has been pretty dormant all month (and if this is also technically double posting, then I apologize). However, I’ve had a bit of thinking, and I think I’ve decided what I’d like to build, once I get enough funding (and I’m a bit older.) And hear me out.

I’d like to build a brand new LMS Coronation Class, whicuh would make the locomotive No. (4)6258. More specifically, one that carries Ivatt’s modifcations (of which the most notable is a raised cab footplate.) Technically speaking, an Stanier-Ivatt Coronation does not exist, which, on a technicality, means that one could still build one and have it still be of a class that no longer exists. (Just like if one were to build a Black 5 with Caprotti valve gear - none of those were preserved, and even though it’s still a Black 5, it would still be a new build of a class that does not exist.)

Now, I understand that, if I were to build a 4-cylinder Pacific steam locomotive that might have to be shrunken down a hit in height (I believe that Tornado had to be adjusted from the A1’s 13’ 1 1/2” height to 13’ 1” to fit into the Network Rail - soon to be Great British Rail - loading gauge… and as a Coronation Pacific is 13’ 3”, I might have to find a way to shrink the loco down 2”) would require plenty of funding. My estimate? Keep in mind, what I am about to say is based off the fact that Tornado, a 3-cylinder Pacific steam locomotive, was roughly £3 million (rougly $4 million USD), so it would probably be a disperity of sorts in costs if (by some act of God) I can do this.

I estimate £3.5 million to £4 million (roughly $4.7 million USD to $5.3 million USD). Is that a lot? Absolutely. Is that how much it would cost? No idea. And if I do decide to make it, do I have a name for it? No. (In case anyone wanted to know what I may want to name this locomotive, should it exist.)

Thank you for putting up with my rambling.

As we'll never see a 9F on the mainline again I think I'd build one of the proposed BR Std Class 9 2-8-2s with as many modern refinements as possible.

It would be a useful mainline machine, but also useful on the larger preserved lines.

There was a Standard 9 2-8-2 on the drawing boards? Now that’s something that’s be quite interesting… would it essentially have the body of a 9F, but with a trailing axle and 5’ 6” or so drivers?

SRKing783 said:

There was a Standard 9 2-8-2 on the drawing boards? Now that’s something that’s be quite interesting… would it essentially have the body of a 9F, but with a trailing axle and 5’ 6” or so drivers?

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Closer to a Britannia with lots of standard parts shared with that loco. The wheels would have been 5' 3''. This would limit its usefulness on the modern mainline as it would only be allowed up to 50 mph.

edh6 said:

The wheels would have been 5' 3''. This would limit its usefulness on the modern mainline as it would only be allowed up to 50 mph.

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How so? Would the axle load of the locomotive be too excessive to run mainline tours at 75 mph? (That's probably it.) But thank you for letting me know.

SRKing783 said:

How so? Would the axle load of the locomotive be too excessive to run mainline tours at 75 mph? (That's probably it.) But thank you for letting me know.

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Mainline steam speed limits are determined by driving wheel size to keep the rotational velocity and thus reciprocating mass velocity down:
<5ft 0in max 35mph
<5ft 8in max 50mph
<6ft 2in max 60mph
>=6ft 2in max 75mph

edh6 said:

Mainline steam speed limits are determined by driving wheel size to keep the rotational velocity and thus reciprocating mass velocity down:
<5ft 0in max 35mph
<5ft 8in max 50mph
<6ft 2in max 60mph
>=6ft 2in max 75mph

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Ah. Very interesting. Thank you.

Fair point about the speed limit Ed. I didn't think of that, so in a parallel universe you've just saved me £4mil!

I'd better make some more e-specs as thanks

Building a large locomotive is the cheap bit, running it is even more expensive. I'm not sure how many have come close to bankruptcy owning and running the Flying Scotsman over the years as just one example. Peter

That's true. The thing with building a loco is (I think) it's hard to get adequate funding (it's probably not hard to GET people to donate, but to get people to donate ENOUGH), and it would suck if it was too expensive to operate and it would just sit in a siding. (Tornado's gonna get to that point one day... and I think that, as soon as the A1 Steam Trust can't afford to overhaul it - which is hopefully not in my long lifetime - it should go into the UK National Collection.) I think funding is why barely any new-builds are made here in the United States - our steam locomotives were so huge and complex that it would cost a lot in the modern day to build a new loco here.