Surveyor 2.0 feedback thread

Is there a way to change the default tool. Having the "Bruch Tool" tool as a default can get you in trouble. So would having the "Placement Tool". My preference would be to have the "Fine Placement Tool" as the default. I would be more efficient (I use it most often) and it would keep me out of trouble (e.g. I'm not painting or placing something I did not intent to do)
 
Just tested in build 117092 Russ
here the default tool is the "free move" tool
(when editing a route, saving, going out, then edit again)
 
Build 117540

Has anyone tried to use "snap track" in Editor 2.0? I was trying to assemble my turntable kit and can get things to snap together. Am I missing something like a new button?

Don
 
The operation should be pretty much the same. Just match the vertex nodes (the small squares).

My guess is that the turntable you're using has a duplicate attachment point which I've seen in some road junctions.

Please provide the KUID of the turntable and track and a screenshot of what you're attempting.
 
Tony,


This is a list on turntable assets. They are hosted at The Erecting Hall. These have worked since TS12 un-changed. There suppose to snap together and everything lines up.


<kuid2:387111:100165:1>
<kuid2:387111:100167:1>
<kuid2:387111:100166:1>
<kuid2:387111:100662:1>



2022-05-23-204620.jpg
 
Tony
Yes, it does. It works in everything but 2.0. Don

Edit:
2022-05-25-181643.jpg


This turntable has been in Trainz forever. It too works the same way with snap track.
 
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Can we get something in the options that is a checkbox that says something like "Only Display Usable Content" This way when we are in Surveyor 2.0 it will only show assets that can be placed. A lot of times when searching or using the filters there is a lot of clutter because its displaying routes/loco parts etc. So basically when that is checked certain categories would not get displayed in Surveyor 2.0.
 
Don49plm - apparently the ability to snap objects isn't yet supported in S20. So for now user Classic.

Hert - the default asset categories already do this. If you create your own filter then you'll need to add in filters to remove unwanted items using AND NOT Category = Train component for example.
 
Just a few quick words about Surveyor 2 after using for for a couple of days.

Maybe I'm getting too old for change, but I have really struggled with Surveyor 2. And by "really" struggled I do mean really struggled.

Everything I do in Surveyor 2 seems to have become much more complicated, requiring many more mouse clicks and the selection of an option from various menus. What was intuitive is not so now. What was easy is now more complex. It makes me wonder if those who redesigned the interface have actually done any route construction.

I think the rot started to set in with one of the TRS19 Service Patches that removed the buttons at the top of the screen for undo / redo. Anybody who has made a route knows that undoing and redoing are all part of the process. And used very frequently. Yes, I know that there are shortcut keys, but a simple mouse click is (or was) far simpler.

I'll continue with Trainz as long as I have access to Surveyor Classic. Tony -- please hasten to reassure me that this will always be an option in future releases.

Phil
 
I can see where Phil is coming from and I am a bit in both camps. Certainly some things seem more complex or less intuitive (but that could be 20+ years of bad habits with Surveyor Classic). But that may change with practice and remember that Surveyor 2.0 is still a "work in progress" and it will evolve.

There are things I absolutely love about S20 - the marquee tool and the scrapbook and having everything on the screen without having to switch menus and lose settings between the switches. This list will grow, I am certain.

My thoughts.
 
Has anybody reading this thread actually built a route with Surveyor 2? Or even started one? Complete with track laying, terraforming, textures, structures, vegetation, TurfFX, ... .

Or even attempted to edit an existing route?

How did you go with track laying? Do you miss those rotating spline points, for example, that can be dragged to a position? The ability to move those spline points up and down, using the Ctrl key for fine adjustment? Or set it to a defined height. Straighten the track? Or do you like those miniscule square boxes that are so hard to see on complex trackwork? And impossible to see with vegetation or TurfFX.

And the switches. Have you worked out how to change the trigger radius?

How about adding overhead catenary? It's hard enough in Surveyor Classic, but I had to give up in Surveyor 2. I could not even edit the catenary on an existing layout.

And that's just the first step in route construction. Don't get me started on the next steps!

So yep, I'm an old codger that's finding it too hard to change.

Phil
 
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Hi Phil,

I use Surveyor 2.0 for most of my work. It is good in many aspects of route building although the interface takes up too much screen space at the moment. However when it comes to laying trackwork and associated bits and bobs it is just not up to the job. As you say the miniscule square boxes are so hard to see on complex trackwork. I always switch back to Classic Surveyor for trackwork. God help us if N$V ever decide to dump classic.

Makes we wonder sometimes if the devs have ever tried working with their own product on anything other than a simple layout.

Another thing that annoys me in S2.0 is that when trying to move or manipulate any object when it is partially underground the Z axis (blue line) always becomes obscured by the yellow highlighted line making it very difficult to adjust the height.

Yep, much more work needed on S2.0.

John
 
I'm in both camps as well. For most things I've been doing, I'm still in Classic and periodically jump into Surveyor 2.0 for some of the more advanced features. It's not that I don't like to try new things. If that wasn't the case, I wouldn't have traveled, eaten different things, worked in the bleeding edge of technology for various startups and beta tested. I feel overwhelmed rather than enthused to use it.

I honestly gave it a try. I built a small port area and modified an existing route. It was doable but slow going, which I first attributed to me being unfamiliar with the interface, but the more I did it I began to unveil the shortcomings and annoyances. Some of these things such as the still cramped interface hopefully will be updated soon(tm), but others have not changed and apparently will not because the design was set by committee. Those ever-so-tiny and microscopic grab-points, spline-points, and option menus make Surveyor 2.0 too tiring and exhausting to use. The too much at once information panels, while useful, can't be put away because they're needed once they're closed so we then spend more time looking for them again and again. If these menus could be placed on a second monitor that would be the best. Heck, we all have two displays these days, don't we?

The thing is there's too much going on with the interface and there are too many options all at once. I feel there is no modal operation here where specific tasks are separated where Classic Surveyor shined. The interface while a bit outdated is clean and simple. It gets the job done and we can move quickly along. If the tools in Surveyor 2.0 were available in Classic with an updated interface, that would be ideal. The problem however is working on a route is like building a model railroad or putting together a kit with all the parts dumped on the table rather than having the parts in small bins and bags.

Phil, you summed it up better than I did. I'm not old in my thinking, but this sure makes me feel that way.
 
As I work on a route I have been working on for quite some time (maybe 12 months now), I find myself using both Classic and 2.0. Terraforming is a pain in 2.0. What I don't like is the water showing where I create valleys. Great with lakes and rivers, but otherwise a problem. Classic works great. With track laying, I personally find 2.0 better. When laying track in Classic, all the large circles start overlapping and made it hard for me to distinguish tracks. Yes, the small little box can be hard to find, but IMHO, better than the circles. I agree with John, in that there are too many tools that clutter the screen. Another annoyance is that there isn't a better way to switch to a pick list. I can switch between track and scenery object back to track with a simple mouse click. Going from pick list to scenery is one click. Going back requires a trip to a pull-down menu, and a scroll down the list. That's more complicated. In the end, I find myself switching back and forth.
 
As I work on a route I have been working on for quite some time (maybe 12 months now), I find myself using both Classic and 2.0. Terraforming is a pain in 2.0. What I don't like is the water showing where I create valleys. Great with lakes and rivers, but otherwise a problem. Classic works great.

The trick with the water is as soon as you open the route to add water use the import legacy water and then lay the water. This will convert any existing water to S2.0 but will also allow you to paste in the grid square way the same as in classic, no covering the whole board. You can do it this way even if the route has no water to import.
 
It would be interesting to compare our experiences with those of a brand new user of Trainz who is using Surveyor 2.0 without any previous experience of Surveyor 1.0. We "fossils" have the problem of too much familiarity with the "old" when the "new" comes along - I experienced the same when I switched from the old MS Paint to GIMP with its multiple panels/palettes, layers, etc. After many years of using GIMP I still occasionally lose my way but nowhere near as often.

I agree that there are many features in S20 that will need to be "evolved" - the microscopic S20 spline points that can get lost in the clutter for example. There have also been some good suggestions such as the ability to move the panels/palettes onto a second monitor, which I currently use for Google Earth and Google Maps when route building, and for browser based instructions when running sessions. Perhaps I should get a third monitor?
 
Just a few quick words about Surveyor 2 after using for for a couple of days.

Maybe I'm getting too old for change, but I have really struggled with Surveyor 2. And by "really" struggled I do mean really struggled.

Everything I do in Surveyor 2 seems to have become much more complicated, requiring many more mouse clicks and the selection of an option from various menus. What was intuitive is not so now. What was easy is now more complex. It makes me wonder if those who redesigned the interface have actually done any route construction.

I have used a fair bit of both S1 and S2. I'm probably in a similar camp with you, I have used S1 for close to 20 years and I'm just not ready to jump ship to a new toolset, BUT MAN, this feels like a bit of a whinge. You are NOT Forced to use Surveyor 2. N3V have made it clear S1 will be in the game for years to come, possibly forever. S2 is incredibly intuitive, and if you were going to pick to learn one from scratch I'd definitely recommend S2, but I still personally prefer S1. S2 may require as many (not more) clicks than S1, but all the options are at your fingertips where your mouse is when fiddling with objects and splines, rather than moving your mouse to the other side of the screen to change a menu.

I think the rot started to set in with one of the TRS19 Service Patches that removed the buttons at the top of the screen for undo / redo. Anybody who has made a route knows that undoing and redoing are all part of the process. And used very frequently. Yes, I know that there are shortcut keys, but a simple mouse click is (or was) far simpler.

I'll continue with Trainz as long as I have access to Surveyor Classic. Tony -- please hasten to reassure me that this will always be an option in future releases.

Phil

You've totally lost me here. A simple mouse sweep is NOT far simpler than CRTL+Z. It just empirically is not.

From someone who jumps between both all the time.

Cheers
Jamie
 
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