Welcome to TRS22 from the CEO

I agree with most of your reply, but respectfully disagree with the "powerful" part. You lost me on that one. Now, S20 is a LOT more helpful and useful than the standard Trainz Surveyor but having to place trains then go back into driver mode does get kind of annoying. It's probably just me though. I guess it's because I'm used to using the "Edit trains" tab in driver mode rather than using the ET tab in the Unified Driver, so that's probably why I'm disagreeing with what you're saying. It's a me issue that I'm working on. Now, The UDS is quite helpful since it slightly negates the regular transfer between Driver and Surveyor. Also, I have TRS19 Plat which is fantastic, but I unfortunately can't use the TRS19 Platinum application I installed due to some weird issue that causes a lot of my stuff to not register into the game, like the Legacy of the BN II. It caused my route I was working on to miss assets that are required, so I try to avoid using the actual Plat edition until I can figure out a way to keep TRS19 Plat from ruining my route. Other than that, the UDS is really good, almost perfect. I didn't even think Keyboard shortcuts would be something S20 might feature since I mainly use is Alt Enter to go in and out of full screen mode.

If DLC paid the bills, the game would be free. Sadly that isn't the case.

"Milking" customers would indicate that we're rolling in cash whereas pretty much every penny we earn goes back into making Trainz better.

In regards to offering a choice between subs and purchasing, there are many examples of this in SaaS. Tiered memberships are the future of software.

Ultimately if 20 cents a day is too expensive for you, then you need to find a cheaper hobby.

Tony_Hilliam said:

If DLC paid the bills, the game would be free. Sadly that isn't the case.

"Milking" customers would indicate that we're rolling in cash whereas pretty much every penny we earn goes back into making Trainz better.

In regards to offering a choice between subs and purchasing, there are many examples of this in SaaS. Tiered memberships are the future of software.

Ultimately if 20 cents a day is too expensive for you, then you need to find a cheaper hobby.

Click to expand...

And that's without mentioning the new staff members that have been hired to help make Trainz better and provide new features since subscriptions started.

Tony_Hilliam said:

Tiered memberships are the future of software.

Click to expand...

And only tiered memberships?

Tony_Hilliam said:

If DLC paid the bills, the game would be free. Sadly that isn't the case.

Click to expand...

If that was the case, then all games that have paid dlc would be free. Unfortunately for this quote, that's not actually true. How do you think DTG is able to maintain TSC and release new dlcs? Because they make money off of the dlcs they publish and make. The same goes for third party devs like Reppo, VRC, Smokebox, etc.. They all make money off their dlcs, hence why they're able to make more. The same thing goes for other Steam games that don't have dlc, like Brick Rigs, Beamng Drive, Garry's Mod, People Playground, etc... They don't have dlc, yet the devs are able to still maintain their games. How? Because people buy those games. Why? Because they listen to their customers and because their games aren't broken, laggy, or contain important features locked behind paywalls.

Tony_Hilliam said:

"Milking" customers would indicate that we're rolling in cash whereas pretty much every penny we earn goes back into making Trainz better.

Click to expand...

"Milking" is pretty obvious. The amount of people willing to defend N3V Games proves what I said about Milking. Also, Trainz isn't "Better". It's no different from TRS19. TRS22 is literally just a re-release of Trainz 2019. It's quite obvious. The reused assets, the title change, the title style, same dlcs, same broken TRC system, down to the letter. They pulled a complete DTG move.

Tony_Hilliam said:

In regards to offering a choice between subs and purchasing, there are many examples of this in SaaS. Tiered memberships are the future of software.

Click to expand...

Yeah hahaha NO. They're NOT. SaaS is NOT by any means a good thing. If I have to pay for a membership just to get access to features that should already be in a game, then we've got a problem. A serious one too. WinRar doesn't use SaaS and it's booming, therefore SaaS is clearly not a good move. It's more of a dong move. If everyone has access to a game, then everyone should have access to the same features, it's only fair and really shows that devs don't have favorites.

Tony_Hilliam said:

Ultimately if 20 cents a day is too expensive for you, then you need to find a cheaper hobby.

Click to expand...

20 cents isn't what people actually pay for Trainz memberships. That's a BIG lie in itself. Depending on the membership you subscribe to, you either pay 26 cents per day or 49 cents per day. While 26 cents per day isn't expensive, to have to even pay for features that should be in the game is pretty strange, especially when most games don't have paid memberships that give you access to features that they've already put in the game for players to enjoy. I never said it was too expensive either, I'm just pointing out how unnecessary it is to lock important features behind paywalls and expect everyone to just accept it as normal. It's not normal.

Trainz regular versions are not subscription and have every feature needed to run the game. Plus is additional features that are still being worked on. Regular Trainz versions are not crippled. You can run any version of Trainz you own, if you can get it to work. Offering a subscription isn’t hurting those who bought a retail version as all those features work. If you want a plus feature, either do a subscription or wait to see when it is offered in regular versions. Trainz 19 is different than 22. Compressed files, new audio and other things I can’t think of are different. There is a list of the features somewhere. Fact is businesses need money to survive. Business has increased for them by offering subscription, which has allowed them to pay for more programmers, which has brought more features. Tony is listening to users, that is why businesses has increased.

Much (all?) of your post is simply your opinion (which you are entitled to hold) but you are confusing your opinions with "facts".

Lets take just one statement.

itstypicalrailfanner said:

"Milking" is pretty obvious. The amount of people willing to defend N3V Games proves what I said about Milking.

Click to expand...

How do the alleged number of "defending" posts prove anything? Do you have the stats to back up your claim? This post is post #326 (unless someone beats me to it) and how many posts (and individual posters) have "defended" versus "complained"?

Anyone in marketing will tell you that those who are most likely offer opinions on a product are those who have a complaint (legitimate or not). Customers who are happy or are "neutral" will usually not bother.

My opinions.

Tony_Hilliam said:

<snip>...Ultimately if 20 cents a day is too expensive for you, then you need to find a cheaper hobby.

Click to expand...

As long as your here, its not the 20 cents a day that concerns me so much, it's the "What if...?".

If I sign up this year and get TrainzPlus, but next year I can't swing it what happens? Does it just "downgrade" to the retail version (ATM TRS22)? Or am I locked out of all of it unless and until I re-subscribe?

This is my real concern, the idea that we are moving to a model where we have to keep paying or loose it all.

To clarify "20 cents a day", $69.95 (annual Trainz Plus) divided by 365 days is, in fact, 19.1 cents a day. This is our most popular option, so you could say "for most people who choose to subscribe, it's certainly true that it is less than 20 cents a day".

DLC alone doesn't pay "our" bills (in fact, it's not even close). Other companies have different budgets and markets. DTG has 20x the number of staff than we do, which possibly makes a difference.

That said, we're exploring other options for a more DLC-driven approach.

TRS22 and TRS19 share a common code base and UI, which is true. It also has 5 new routes, MPS, other new features, and it's an optional purchase.

Ultimately, if our memberships weren't thriving (which they are), then I think TRS19 would have been the final edition of Trainz with no new features being released ever.

We made a choice that suits our company and our product (we're hiring more people, not laying them off as we were pre-subs, allowing us to add more features and content more quickly).

It's up to the market to decide if they're with us or against us.

This is my real concern, the idea that we are moving to a model where we have to keep paying or loose it all.

Click to expand...

Each month (or year) you remain a member, you have access. If you can't "swing it" one month, then cancel and rejoin when you can.

We offered TRS22 as a "Keep forever" option so if you took that up, you'd be able to switch to the TRS22 version while not a member. Otherwise, you'd need to purchase a copy of Trainz. You can pick up an older version for $5-10 during various sales and next year TRS22 discount pricing will be bigger than this year's sales.

So, if I subscribe I get trainz plus. If my subscription lapses, I have nothing until I resubscribe.

Or

I can buy retail for approximately the price of a year subscription - not spend that same amount the following year, and still have a game to play.

That's not an encouraging contrast, tho I appreciate the answer.

In the future I'd give serious consideration to making it so that Trainz Plus becomes the lesser retail version when the subscription expires. (Which I *guess* is the same thing as the now expired "keep TRS22 forever" offer - pity that wasn't made more clear.) You may find even more customers interested in giving it a shot.

Right now, based ENTIRELY on the fact that if my subscription would expire I'd have no game, I'll be going retail if Santa stuffs my stocking with enough green this year.

I believe (as Tony mentions in his last paragraph) most of the offers by N3V have been to subscribe and keep TRS22 forever. So, if you drop the subscription, TRS22 is still yours. You just lose any DLC you haven't purchased separately. The cost was about the same amount as buying TRS22 separately, so by subscribing you get a year's access to the extras and 22 forever.

> We offered TRS22 as a "Keep forever" option

Offered, past tense - even you used past tense "have been" doesn't do me much good now.

My point was that when I saw that offer, I lacked the context of how much of a deal it was. Basically 2 for 1.

Only a headline of "Keep TRS22 Forever!" Doesn't fully communicate that. How many times have you seen ad copy trumpeting something implying its something special when in fact its just a normal condition? "We never said it was special, we were just excitedly telling you about what you get" would be their defense.

Yes I'm cynical, but I've been burned so often by making assumptions that I smell like a camp fire.

It's hard to get all the information required in a headline, and I understand that marketing hype is often just that. Although I'm pretty sure we said it was a limited-time offer.

Regarding the value equation, you're not factoring in the free FCT - that's $5.99 a month or $35 a year. Then there's the access to the new features, so with the latest retail version you'll be missing out on S20, HD Terrain, and all the other new features and content coming to Trainz Plus. Shameless plug to the latest info here.

Tony_Hilliam said:

It's hard to get all the information required in a headline, and I understand that marketing hype is often just that. Although I'm pretty sure we said it was a limited-time offer.

Click to expand...

I recall at the time that it clearly stated "limited offer". I even seem to recall that prior to the limited time expiring there were reminders of that fact.

pware said:

I recall at the time that it clearly stated "limited offer". I even seem to recall that prior to the limited time expiring there were reminders of that fact.

Click to expand...

Yep, it was very clear that the last offer was for the month of November. I kicked myself last year when I didn’t take up that offer. A year of Plus, is cheaper than monthly plus get to keep Trainz 22 and have FCT in addition. One can be cynical, but business can be sued for false advertising. Glad to have the deal back this year.

Many businesses walk that fine legal line wherein they can imply a falsehood without actually, legally, lying.

N3V doesn't do that. Just to be clear.

As far as limited time, I never said I didnt know that. I most certainly did know that. It was prominently stated.

I said I didnt have context for the "Keep TRS22 Forever" part. Maybe I'm thick, I suspect that in some regards I am, but that's how it went for me.

OTOH, the "I was kicking myself" post above at least gives me hope that the offer will come around again.

Meanwhile I'm quite happy with 19, and I will wait and see. I'm subbed to the newsletter.

I’m no great fan of the subscription model, but it was crystal clear to me that the recent offer meant that you were getting the retail version of TRS22 if you paid for the annual subscription.

As long as the option to buy retail remains then I am content. If it goes, then as a customer, so do I.

OMG. Over and over I've said what I was missing about the situation, and over and over replies focus on everything but.

Like watching my dog stare at my finger while I point at something.

One more time, that part that was not clear is the part where a lapsed subscription, under normal circumstances, means no more game (unless you resubscribe).

I thought the game changed from Plus to retail. Based in part on my experiences with Fallout 76, where once you buy the game you have the game, but if you want acess to additional features (sound familar?) You have to subscribe to Fallout 1st.

If your Fallout 1st subscription expires, you loose access to the features NOT ENTIRE THE GAME. Heck one of fhe features is being able to store more resources and if your sub expires you don't loose that extra, you just can't store more until your supplies are below the lower standard limit.

A much more friendly, nonpunative, model.

Ah. I think I get you now. You are saying that other than the specific times when the "Keep Forever" offer is made, you can't keep 22 forever? You would subscribe, and then when you drop it, it all goes away. That is a point I had not considered, and it will definitely be something I pay attention to if I should decide to subscribe! Thank you for pointing that out. It should be obvious, but it was not to me as I was considering this. If I subscribe, I will have to make sure the offer is in place!

Okay you what I'm backing out of this argument. I feel like it's getting too heated. Thanks Tony for trying to clear things/misconceptions up. I appreciate it, but I feel things are getting too heated. So, you guys have fun, I'll just watch and see where this goes.