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Thread: Disappointed in the forum as of late

  1. #1
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    Default Disappointed in the forum as of late

    These discussion forums have been a real downer place as of late (well maybe longer than recently). Tony Hillman announces the release of a new patch, or upgrade, sale or the like and there are more complaints than anything else. While constructive criticism is an important part of customer interaction as well as quality and product improvement; the bashing that goes on is really discouraging.

    TRS 22 BETA gets announced and people bi*** about bugs and things it doesn't have. A sale gets announced and people whine that what they wanted wasn't included in the sale. A content creator releases something and there's questions why this road or that road wasn't part of the freebie release. Or it's missing this or that.

    When I was into scale model railroading and other model building, these people were called "rivet counters." Yes, they have there place as encouraging more accurate models. But they are a discouragement too, because they are never happy.

    As has been said on these forums before: If you can do a better job of designing and programming a train simulation than N3V, go for it. Let's see what you can do. I don't have that skill. I appreciate what someone else can do. I have my issues with some parts of the game, but nothing is perfect.

    Now, to those who wonder why this issue bugs me; I am a woodworker who uses my hobby to make a little bit of money on the side. It's disappointing to have people complain that I don't make what they want or why my prices are what they are. I suggest they make it themselves. That shuts them up.

    Thank you to N3V and the content creators for everything you do for us.

    I do expect for people to bi*** and flame me for this, it's a public forum. You're entitled to your opinion, as am I. And this is simply my opinion.
    I shall climb off my soapbox and go back into my cave.
    Jeff
    Trainz Plus (TRS22) build 115985 (beta)

  2. #2
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    Actually, I think that was well stated, and I agree! I do think there are places for constructive criticism, but I think grousing at every good news is misplaced.
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    I will disappoint you by agreeing with your comments and not flaming you (which I am sure would be a hazard in a woodworking environment).

    The negativity always increases whenever a new patch or new version is released or announced. As you have noted it is an occupational hazard for anyone in business or who provides a service for others. Sometime it can be justified and there is nothing wrong with constructive criticism.

    Some of the posts in these forums are simply venting frustration because things have not gone the way they had expected. Even worse, there are some posters (fortunately very few) who do not like any posts that offer an alternative point of view to their own when they are venting. Decades of dealing with teenagers has given me a thick skin (or a "thick skull" as some would no doubt claim!) and that is what you need today to be in a business where you have feedback from customers. I am always impressed by the calmness shown by Tony and the N3V crew under often totally unjustified and frequently ignorant fire.

    My opinions.
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  4. #4
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    I would agree with your point as well. There is a place for criticism, and I often find myself somewhat frustrated with N3V, but some people take it over the edge and revert to unproductive criticism.
    Last edited by dundun92; November 26th, 2021 at 05:44 PM.

  5. #5
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    I agree. I’ve really been hating the forums recently. It’s just people complaining about how a very small company is kind enough to supply a new game, and can afford to slash prices, but NO, they’re using 20-year old assets and ___ product isn’t on sale. Let’s boycott them, and I’ll never buy anything from N3V again.

    No.

    If you can make brand new assets that are better than anything in the game, go. If you want to have better sales on more products, then support them. Maybe buy an FCT. (And yes, I realize I’m a bit hypoctitical, as I made a thread complaining on DLS speeds and the use of an FCT, but we live and learn. I apologize to N3V for that.)

    For you to expect a small company to do so much… wow. If you have so many ideas, then how about ask N3V if they have a job opening?

    I will say that, even though I won’t be able to run it yet, there is a good chance I will preorder TRS22, as I believe that it will be a really good train simulator. And also… if you think N3V’s using old assets, then look at the Railworks series (not including TSW). That’s been the EXACT same game for forever.

    Just saying.

  6. #6
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    My sentiments as well (original post). My favourite forum, Content Creation, is mostly moribund so I guess there are few creators or no one willing to share information. There are two main threads about TS22 and one rapidly generated into the usual moans and groans. After initially participating I unsubscribed from both. I can always pan through responses looking for those raw nuggets of information.

    The situation in the Trainz Discord channels is mixed. The discussions in the CC areas are mostly quite interesting and I often see some great creations in progress. There is a general Trainz help channel that I will respond to but then you get characters such as the one that demanded help at 2AM (Australian time) and then exploded when no one had responded 16 minutes later. Then there are those who want help but only if a Youtube video is provided. i.e. they have no interest in reading anything.

    Paul


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    I have to agree with what the OP said.
    I've also noticed the forums has been going downhill. Instead of delivering constructive criticism (which is always welcomed) they go into greedy mood and take things way too far. There are things I don't always agree with N3V but its the way it is and of course you can go with the Trainz flow or go down another flow (shrugs).

    Unfortunately this happens to all gaming and software communities where we have the happy people and we have the not-so-happy people.

    Cheers

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by SRKing783 View Post
    but NO, they’re using 20-year old assets and ___ product isn’t on sale. Let’s boycott them, and I’ll never buy anything from N3V again.
    I do apologize for saying that, and looking back at some of my older posts, if I could take them back, I would. Only now have I seen how unproductive constant complaining is. Trainz may not be the game I, or alot of other people may have exactly wanted, but its alot better than what most of the competitors have to offer.
    Last edited by dundun92; November 26th, 2021 at 07:02 PM.

  9. #9
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    I actually wish N3V would help squash NEEDLESS destructive comments. I'm not talking about a complaint or disagreement, but those cases where all someone does is bash and only bash n3v. It's like they see it as their lifes goal. I want insightful disagreement, and other points of view, not mindless bashing. And why someone is allowed to have a signature that promotes another product is beyond me.
    22+ beta 116069; 19+ SP5 beta 116009; 19-Std SP3; Tane
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  10. #10
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    One additional comment I will make is that, strangely, the negativity can be a good sign. I cannot remember his name but one of the founders of Auran (long before it became N3V), who left game development to go into the academic world, posted an essay (which I can no longer locate) on his experiences at Auran. He stated that one thing he learned about "Trainzers" is that they see Trainz as being their "personal property" and they can get very passionate about it. He saw this as a good sign and not necessarily as a disadvantage.

    The heated arguments and "strong opinions" that can be expressed in these forums are often a sign of people being very passionate about "their" hobby. But some can take it too far, like hobbyists everywhere.

    My thoughts.

    EDIT: After a bit of searching I found his name (he was actually the first poster in many of the "sticky" forum threads) - Lance Jago.
    Last edited by pware; November 26th, 2021 at 08:52 PM. Reason: addendum
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  11. #11
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    One can be passionate and have strong opinions without being rude... It's the "flaunting the hate" that I don't like.
    Last edited by 1611mac; November 26th, 2021 at 09:46 PM. Reason: more appropriate wording
    22+ beta 116069; 19+ SP5 beta 116009; 19-Std SP3; Tane
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  12. #12
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    Constructive and diplomatically put criticism is fine, better is properly done bug reports if there is a problem, what isn't OK is badmouthing people and making accusations and creating an unpleasant atmosphere in the forum. We all know Trainz is not perfect, no software ever is, far larger companies than N3V often get things wrong, considering the limited number of staff N3V has I think they do a pretty good job.
    Malc


  13. #13
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    I wholeheartedly agree with the OP. He's a woodworker and I've been in computer programming for almost 60 years (1964). One truism of the trade is you "... can't please all the people all the time." I only know that when I tried, I got shot at no matter what I did. You do your best and put your product out there and begin work on a patch or upgrade. The process never ends. I do agree that sometimes a company -- me included -- can put a product out there just a teeny bit before it's ripe. Even big companies make huge mistakes. Case in point: the DVD/BluRay player I bought was recently bricked by a downloaded automatic update from the company. It stopped working entirely. No response from the company, however. At least N3V does respond "soon."

    Bill
    Last edited by HiBaller; November 26th, 2021 at 10:14 PM.
    Bill (USN, Retired) Into computers over 58 years - Trainzer since: 2003
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  14. #14
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    Some people have been here for twenty years and bought nearly every product Auran and N3V have put out. That can lead to quite a feeling of investment. The disappointment comes from 20 years of new releases and 4 service packs every time before the product works (mostly) as advertised. When you stick with a product and company for twenty years and devote time to beta testing, bug reporting, creating content to be included with and increase the perceived value of the next version of Trainz, creating free content for the DLS, and in some cases even working directly with game developers via phone and email to try and improve game features, you give a lot of yourself. It becomes something more than just the normal buyer/seller relationship.

    This is very much a niche product for enthusiasts and there is a lot of passion. This does perhaps explain some of the disappointment and negativity. No excuse for direct attacks or rudeness though, of course.

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