Why I am upset with the last two "Updates"

First, I cannot open my original session and start Driver over at the ORIGINAL Beginning. Now, whenever I open the route (my Alma Valley Route) and go to the beginning in what is supposed to be the START POINT of my original session, it isn't at the original start point, but somewhere in the middle of the session. I can open the route and it, too, will be somewhere in the middle of the original session. I can look at my drivers, and they will show up, but all the original instructions are gone (in Edit Route). Edit Session will show the original driver instructions with all stopping points, load, unload, etc. etc.

This has ended my playtime with Trainz. What did you guys do?? Trainz has never worked like this before. I was always able to go in and select the route and "Edit Session" and be taken to the original point where I last saved the route, the beginning of the session. This new version of Trainz stinks.

Also, in Driver there is no or almost NO traffic on the roads. Two updates before there was always plenty of traffic on my highways. This stinks, too.

I don't know what these last two updates were supposed to "Fix" but in my opinion there was nothing fixed, only broken.

Dave

Dave sad to hear
Try to analyse what has changed as precise as possible and send a bug report
The only way it gets fixed if we don't give up and tell them what is broken and what we really want
Hopefully you kept an older version and backups.
Here I use 100240 for content creation, route and session building
and SP4 to test and drive only. side by side.
Go work in a version you feel comfy with and keep having fun with Trainz

I'm sure the odd starting location was an iteration in one of the earlier versions, maybe even the first TANE?

I really get the impression whoever is now programming for N3V are playing around with the spaghetti code and making it more tangled! It's not the first time old issues thought to have been patched out have resurfaced...

Not a programmer here, but what I do here when work on scripts is add enough comments,
that i can search and explain in steno what I did


The problem with Trainz that beside a main code there are a few hundred little scripts that do part of the work
112 you can read in the resources/scripts dir, but there are many more in separate kuids
then for html related stuff, there are 67 files in userinterface and again many more via separate kuids
then there are what I want to call outsourced things, like PhysX, speedtrees, TNI etc. etc.
next, it needs to work on many platforms, increasing the code drasticly.


If you want to call it spaghetti, fine I think its way more complex
more complex is more error.
I would not want to be in the shoes of a Trainz programmer today.
Lets try to help them, by being as precise as we can with bug reports and our wishes

G.M. said:

Not a programmer here, but what I do here when work on scripts is add enough comments,
that i can search and explain in steno what I did


The problem with Trainz that beside a main code there are a few hundred little scripts that do part of the work
112 you can read in the resources/scripts dir, but there are many more in separate kuids
then for html related stuff, there are 67 files in userinterface and again many more via separate kuids
then there are what I want to call outsourced things, like PhysX, speedtrees, TNI etc. etc.
next, it needs to work on many platforms, increasing the code drasticly.

Click to expand...

The watchers always know better than the doers

I like G.M.s advice, but unfortunately N3V does not make the older version installers available. I happened to save the SP3 installer and the 105100 installer. What version is that? I suppose it doesn't matter because then all of my 4.7 and 4.8 assets would be DOA. So you really can't go back unless you want to start over.

105100 is SP1 with the content store added, released 19dec2019
a good version but bulk-asset replace splines will not work

I am still running 110491. I find 114800 derails all the cars when you delete a building asset then hit crl Z. Bug report has been sent.

Thanks G.M. Nice to know!

I understand Dave's frustration with this. The cause is an unintended effect caused by UDS. If an active driving session is edited and saved in midst of operation, consists will end up out of place on the next save. It's because of this that I wish that the reset driver schedules, or whatever it's called, reset the drivers too back to their home positions. Just resetting the driver's schedules throws everything into a bigger heap of crap as the AI start their driver schedules all over again from the wrong starting places, so that's basically useless as far as I can tell.

Since I discovered this issue, I save all my driver sessions to CDPs prior to running them the first time. If I should inadvertently save the session as well as the route, I can easily restore my session back to it's original.

JCitron said:

The cause is an unintended effect caused by UDS. If an active driving session is edited and saved in midst of operation, consists will end up out of place on the next save.
<snip>
Since I discovered this issue, I save all my driver sessions to CDPs prior to running them the first time. If I should inadvertently save the session as well as the route, I can easily restore my session back to it's original.

Click to expand...

Agree.
Number one rule, if editing the world do it via 'edit route".
Second rule, If editing the session do it via "edit session"
Third rule, Use UDS for only minimal amendments and make sure the save is correct. eg 'save route only and not the session', that way the vehicles will still be at their starting position when the Drive session is loaded at another time.
Fourth rule,frequently back up, back up, back up! Seperate custom named and dated cdps for route and seperate custom named cdps for the sessions.

When following the above rules, I rarely have an issue. But if I do make a muckup of the saving because I did not pay attention to the save box selections, bring in the good ole backup - after deleting the messed up session first of course.

davesnow said:

First, I cannot open my original session and start Driver over at the ORIGINAL Beginning. Now, whenever I open the route (my Alma Valley Route) and go to the beginning in what is supposed to be the START POINT of my original session, it isn't at the original start point, but somewhere in the middle of the session.

Click to expand...

As John points out in the post above, this is the UDS (Unified Driver Surveyor) interface. It is a very powerful development tool for route and session creators, and to get it was the sole reason I upgraded to TRS19 Platinum Edition. It allows you to stop an active driver session, fix a problem, and then continue the session from that point without having to start the entire session from the beginning again. This is a feature that many users have been demanding for many years now.

But it does come with a risk. If you save the edited session using the "Overwrite" option (which many people who have this issue are doing) then you will replace your original session with a new session with all moving consists in their new position and all rules in their current states.

It is also strongly recommended that all consists be placed in a Session layer and not in a Route Layer (which many people who have this issue are not doing).

When using the UDS, the recommended saving techniques, unless you actually do want to save the consists in their new positions and rules in the new states, then:-

• Select the option DO NOT SAVE THE SESSION, or
• Select the option CREATE A NEW SESSION and enter a new name for the session

Both will keep the original (starting) session untouched.


Details are in the Trainz Wiki page at https://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/How_to_Use_the_UDS_Interface

davesnow said:

I don't know what these last two updates were supposed to "Fix" but in my opinion there was nothing fixed, only broken.

Dave

Click to expand...

My thoughts too, Dave. Apparently the 180 degree bug is well known but wasn't universal to everyone, so in all fairness they make others suffer it now too.

All break and no fix.

Over the many years, I've enjoyed your work... very much. In fact, Trainz would have been unrealistic and mundane had you not contributed as you have and I thank you.

At the very least, they ought to provide a rolled back version, no less some kind of explanation or statement of intent on how these issues will addressed.

dleblanc said:

All break and no fix.

Click to expand...

Not true. A lot of things have been fixed and other improvements made but of course that won't be believed by those affected by the new issues.

dleblanc said:

At the very least, they ought to provide a rolled back version, no less some kind of explanation or statement of intent on how these issues will addressed.

Click to expand...

Tony has already stated that a rollback is not possible. He has also stated that they are working on the issues that have been raised. As to "how they will be addressed"? I would prefer that they work on the issues rather than waste time providing detailed technical descriptions that would never be detailed enough for some.

Before SP4 was released it was asked how many new bugs will be in the new release?. Tony answered that they can only work on the issues that the beta testing and their own internal testing reveal but that "100%" of unreported bugs will be present in the released update. How much testing is enough? Given that it is mathematically impossible ("Turing Machine" and "Godel's Theorum" - Google them!) to confirm/prove that software is "bug free".

Perhaps instead of just complaining we should document (with facts not emotions) and report via the Bug Reporting page at https://n3vgames.typeform.com/to/xRdryu. All the new SP4 problems that I have encountered I have documented and reported this way, as well as posting in these forums - it works for me.

My opinions

Well stated pware. There are at least three ways to handle patches:
1. Back up your current version, install the beta, and report all errors found during the beta period. If it is too much or too critical for you, roll back to your backups.
2. Back up your current version, install the release, and report all errors found with the release. If it is too much or too critical for you, roll back to your backups.
3. Wait. Wait for 30 days or more to get a good handle on the responses from the early testers, then make the decision whether to move up to option 2.
I am currently at option 3. I don't know if I will wait a full 30 days, but I want to see what the real issues are after the shouting is done.
EDIT: Admittedly, Option 3 does not make testing and fixing available to N3V, as if it isn't used no errors will be found.

I too have been tripped up by this new behaviour. As said, for testing and fixing a route, it's great. Don't have to restart a session from the very beginning every time I stop get out of Driver to make a fix and then continue.

Besides the "Restart All Rules" in the session editor, there needs to be a complementary "Reset all vehicles" command. If there is only one test engine it's easy to move it back to where it started. Too many and it become a royal PITA.

Will have to remember to choose Do not save session and keep all vehicles in the session layer.

Just a question to anyone who knows the answer. The UDS feature was originally in TRS19 Platinum Edition SP3 (and Trainz Plus SP3) but not in TRS19 SP3. Is it now in TRS19 SP4?

pware said:

Perhaps instead of just complaining we should document (with facts not emotions) and report via the Bug Reporting page at https://n3vgames.typeform.com/to/xRdryu. All the new SP4 problems that I have encountered I have documented and reported this way, as well as posting in these forums - it works for me.

My opinions

Click to expand...

I've been a Trainz user since UTC. Supportive of others, a content creator and satisfied, until this patch. If being disappointed and commenting in a civil tone means being a complainer then I'm even more disappointed than before.

I know one thing for certain. I learned the hard way, that the 180 degree bug was a KNOWN thing and not even remotely addressed in this patch. So when it reared it's ugly head on my system this time around, it's my fault and I'm a complainer. Correct?

A bug report does not change the fact that this is not my doing. It's N3V's undoing. Hillman's statement is inadequate. I asked whether this will be amended as to it's consideration and action taken.

I don't need lectures from fanboi's, it doesn't fix this issue, but thank you for your opinion nonetheless.

pware said:

Just a question to anyone who knows the answer. The UDS feature was originally in TRS19 Platinum Edition SP3 (and Trainz Plus SP3) but not in TRS19 SP3. Is it now in TRS19 SP4?

Click to expand...

I assume there is an SP4 "Standard" (so called on the purchase page) - So if you have any release of "Standard" you do not have UDS. UDS comes with Platinum and PLus SP3 and SP4. I have Plus installs of SP2, SP3, and SP4 but to get a copy of "Standard" I had to create a separate account and purchase "Standard" outright. What takes getting used to is that my Standard SP3 has the same release Number as my PLUS SP3 (it's easy to expect a lower build number since it's not Plus). That's, of course, due to the fact that my Plus account "turns on" the UDS and other Plus features. I assume I can patch my Standard SP3 to Standard SP4, but I havn't even checked the Standard patches available yet as my main bed is Plus. Confusing isnt' it. And yes, I have paid for 19 Early Release, then 10 Plus subscription, and then 19 Standard. Why standard? Just to have one in hand. Crazy isn't it?

dleblanc said:

I don't need lectures from fanboi's, it doesn't fix this issue, but thank you for your opinion nonetheless.

Click to expand...

I respect your opinions, contributions and experience and no-one is blaming you for the SP4 problems. You could perhaps blame me, as an SP4 beta tester, for not doing enough testing to discover all the problems (I plead guilty).

Emotional and vague complaints rarely or never fix problems.

dleblanc said:

All break and no fix.

Click to expand...

Documenting and reporting has a far greater chance. There are problems that I documented and reported years ago, as far back as TS12, that took several versions and updates to finally get a fix - whether my reporting was the catalyst I do not know and do not care as long as the issues are fixed.

Why does offering a different opinion often result in being labelled a "fanboi"? An emotional response?

My opinions.