Surveyor 2.0 - Discussion Thread

Firstly, this update is about "tools" and not things like the terrain, environment etc. And we'd also love to implement many of the suggestions from here and the suggestions forum (and several thousand other threads throughout the years). As always, it comes down to picking the battles we can win, in the time we have, with the small team we have.

So here's a few quick answers, but there will be plenty more info to come later: (and I've provided the full size image above)

* The layer you are currently editing is shown in the Layer palette
* Any item you select will show various pieces of information in the Info palette, including locations, rotation, which layer it is in etc
* Groups of selected items can be moved or rotated together in X,Y and Z directions (you can even select the terrain and raise that with the objects)
* Scrapbooks are basically "clipboards" containing your copied items. They can be named, saved and therefore used in other routes (The exception to this is payware routes otherwise someone could copy and paste the entire route (probably a few baseboards at a time to void any memory issues))
* Content filters will allow filtering on anything that you can filter on in Content Manager (the Asset palette is more or less CM inside Surveyor - you can even add and sort columns etc)
* You can multi-select a bunch of items in the world, then Save to Picklist
* It's worth noting that Picklists are simply lists of assets, while Scrapbooks include all the selected items, their placement, rotation etc, plus the terrain and the ground textures
* You can also toggle which items to paste, so you can paste onto the existing terrain by turning of terrain and ground textures before pasting.
As Graeme said, "Life changing progress!"

"I would like to see this in action" - we're working on it. Still plenty of rough edges to iron out, but we're getting there.
 
no offense but calling it surveyor 2.0 without including major features that have been requested for more than a decade just doesn't sound right at all. better dig holes and more brush size options seem simple enough after all this time?

as a sidenote, a community member has already added in better terrain digging, so im really wondering what the deal is here :eek:
 
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I'll give it a try when the "Add random objects" tools gets some improvement to. Like painting like the ground textures and a insert list features to quickly change the objects. Now you must add every single object by hand which is annoying. For the rest, let's bring the half full and half empty glasses.
 
From one teaser / sneak peek image this has quickly become a wish list. Unless they are still in the very early days of coding the new Surveyor, I think most of what they intend has already been done.
Not a wish list, but a genuine desire to know what (if any) of the changes and improvements requested over the years are actually going to be in 2.0. Or is it going to be another of the infamous Auran/N3V makeovers, which makes a few cosmetic alterations (emperor's new clothes) but doesn't really change anything substantial.
Because you can guarantee for "Standard" users, this upgrade - welcome as it is - is probably going to be the main selling point of Trainz 2023 or whatever the next main re-release is going to be called.
 
So just a bunch of tools to make what we already have more complicated without adding any of the features needed to create better terrain .
Is anything in this going to make it easier to create tunnels at different angles.
or to be able to paint or adjust a small area of terrain or will it stay like it is now like trying to fix a watch using a hammer and chisel.
 
A change from the Grid terrain is a big task and has long been planned. It pretty much makes existing routes and texturing redundant. So the alternative complaint would be “so I need to discard the last 20 years work”.

While the new tools are different our testing indicates after a short learning curve you can pretty much work in a similar manner as now, but do things quicker and easier (like moving 100:things with a click instead of 100+ clicks).

Vern - perhaps re-read the features as this is the least “cosmetic” change ever. If you think copy paste from one route to another is cosmetic, for example, then I’m not sure what sort of solution you’re after.

The overall feeling I get here from some of the negative comments is “we want more”. But I don’t see any “and were willing to pay for making it happen”.

We’d love to implement every suggestion sooner rather than later. With 10 times more staff we’d be at least 5 times faster at implementing them. If all our regular Trainz users “invested” a few $ a week as Gold Class members we’d get things done much much quicker.

As it stands, we do as much as we can with what we’ve got. The option for us to do more rests with you guys.

(The alternative is to stick with what you’ve got - no extra charge).
 
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Vern - perhaps re-read the features as this is the least “cosmetic” change ever. If you think copy paste from one route to another is cosmetic, for example, then I’m not sure what sort of solution you’re after.
That point is conceded and certainly one of the features I have wished to see, over the years.

As regards funding, as I alluded to in my previous response, this is more than likely going to get Standard users buying TS2023, assuming it's not on sale at an outrageous price of course.

In terms of starting over, I'm firmly on the side of ditching, or rather preserving, the existing Trainz paradigm in favour of something that allows the overall concept to move forward. Snowrunner graphics and terrain, fully integrated DEM and mapping, TSW2 style timetable operation and autonomous routing.
 
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I'm one of those who do a monthly donation to N3V despite none of the goodies on offer being of any use to me since I model the pre-1910 and late 19th century eras in Cornwall and the south of England. I use SP3 almost exclusively now with TANE SP4 kept on my hard drive so I can still use assets and routes that TRS19 has broken beyond all hope of repair, - though if I had to give up on TANE I suppose I'd get over it eventually. TRS19 still has irritating bugs, but I've had to accept that it's the only real option available to me if I want to continue as a digital railway modeller. I own the Dovetail simulator, but I strongly dislike so many things about it I haven't tried to use it for over 18 months and it isn't even on my hard drive anymore.

I'm with Vern in that if ditching the old is the only way forward then that's how it will have to be. SP3 has already done that by not being compatible with earlier versions of TS2019. And while it's still possible to transfer a TS2004 route into SP3 if you're motivated and persistent enough the work involved with updating a TS2004 route in SP3 to make it look passable makes it barely worthwhile.

Route building is how I spend a lot of my hobby time so I'm looking forward to seeing what Surveyor 2.0 can do and I'm hoping that it's older person and people with disabilities friendly so I no longer need my big magnifying glass so I can read the menus.
 
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A change from the Grid terrain is a big task and has long been planned. It pretty much makes existing routes and texturing redundant. So the alternative complaint would be “so I need to discard the last 20 years work”.

Tony.

I am sure whatever you have planned is not something taken lightly. However, just as a gentle reminder, please please please keep in mind that any feature that breaks backward compatibility this significantly should be either optional or have some sort of conversion tool to ensure the longevity of our community-created content that is so unique and dear to the Trainz community.

There have been many backwards-non-compatible features implemented over the years and while they have certainly obsoleted some content, this was limited to a small portion of content, often falling under the "content is too old and don't look good in the new version" category, and/or was able to be updated and brought back to life in newer Trainz versions. Which is fine.

What you are suggesting above, is a complete, utter 100% obsoleting of every single route ever created for Trainz, many of which have had years or even decades worth of work in them and some that look more at home in an art gallery than an indie train sim. You are already aware of the complaint against such a move, I just hope you also recognize the gravity of this complaint.
 
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If you keep the grid based system, you keep your fan base. It's that simple. It would eventually lead to more costs and less development if a move to a different system was made. There is always a way to get around problems and extend the usefulness of what we already have.
With regard to standard and platinum users having access to the new tools, you can either pay to play now, or wait for a new version and pay later. Why not try a cheap TrainzPlus sub when it launches and give it a try. (yes, I used to be a salesman) $$$ help development.

Cheers, Graeme
 
re: the baseboard grid, when it went from a 10 m grid to a mixed 10 m / 5 m grid, did any of the old routes die? I can still import a route I made in TRS2004 into TS19 and it works. Unless going to an even finer grid requires a fundamental change in how it works, the big negative will be the extra processing power that will be needed. And if it is applied on an as needed basis as the current 5 m grid is, then as long as it is not over used, it might be manageable on less than extreme game computers. I can see that it would be a one-way trip, once converted to the new grid, it can't be used in older versions. Anything that works directly with the grid such as ground textures, dig holes, etc would also have to be converted which might not be a trivial task. Also included in this would be DEM sourced baseboards.
 
The new features "look great" but I can't really tell what they are because the text is too small and the contrast between the text and the background is isn't enough. I'm serious about this and if this is the way the menus are going to be in real life, I'll forgo the update.

With that out of the way, you said the layers panel will indicate which layer is selected. It already does that now, if we remember to look. The layers panel, unlike textures, and other assets panels, most likely won't be kept open because it will eat up valuable screen real estate. Instead of requiring the layers panel to be left open in order for us to know which layer we're on, how about putting something on the status bar? Selected layers could be "lit up" in some color on the status bar so we can visibly seeing what layer we're on without the layers panel open.
 
I'm with you, John. I rarely, if ever, have no more than one slide-out panel open. Most of the time, I select what I want, then close the panel so I can use the whole screen for my current task. You currently cannot have more than one panel open a a time, so leaving the Layer pop-out open isn't possible. Putting something, in a contrasting color, on the upper title bar is the most viable solution. I also agree that current menu colors are totally unacceptable. Dark gray on a black background is impossible to read for these tired old eyes. Like KotangaGirl, I have a big magnifying glass handy to read what they are.

Leave all the big, glitzy bells and whistles for way in the future. Start right here correcting and adding things that have been begged for over the last fifteen years and never delivered.

Bill
 
...

* The layer you are currently editing is shown in the Layer palette...
True, if you leave the layer palette open. But as soon as I want to do something with other objects, the layer palette closes.
Now with multiple palettes visible, that might be a partial solution. They do take up valuable screen space and for those with smaller monitors, that is a major issue. If the layer palette can be minimized to show the current selection, then it could be parked in a corner of the menu bar that is not being used.
 
It looks to me like the new layer list can be open all the time. The current layer listed with a drop-down menu to pick a different layer might be even better, but the current solution is certainly better than what we have now.
It also sounds like we now select an object, then select move / rotate / whatever? I'm happy to see that - selecting the operation, then clicking on the object to move it has caused me to move the wrong item many times :)
I'm looking forward to playing with the new implementation!

Curtis
 
Im not really digging the windows being on both sides. The older style where everything was on the right is organized and quicker to navigate.
 
Did a little experiment how the new right click context menu could look when transparent
also some of the menu options are shortened
 
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