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Thread: Gamma

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Driver_Col View Post
    So you are suggesting that doing nothing is okay because you cannot please everybody? See anything wrong in that logic? As for getting tired of "flogging this dead horse"? Please do us all a favour and stop flogging it. Regards. Colin.
    I, politely, recommend that you read the first and second paragraphs again.
    Trainz Plus build 111951 and build 114205
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by pware View Post
    I, politely, recommend that you read the first and second paragraphs again.
    Quote: As I posted earlier in this endless thread, it wouldn't matter what the default value is set to (2.0 or 2.2 or something else) there will always be those who will not like it.

    Quote: I suspect that the same will probably happen to the PP settings but, like all things that involve personal preferences, the complaints about lighting will never end.

    Seems like my suggestion (I stress "suggestion") is quite valid. Regards. Colin.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulsw2 View Post
    I'm quite concerned that people who are making and marketing a video game don't appear to understand the difference between gamma and brightness and how this effects lighting in-game. They are not the same or a substitute for one another!

    The basic problem (for anyone who isn't modelling Mars or the Outback of Australia) is the default gamma is set too high at 2.2. This leaves the users to try and 'fix' this problem with endless fiddling of the environmental controls (like setting the sun and ambient colour boxes to grey, which is far from an adequate solution.)

    The gamma needs to be reset to 2.0 either through a fix or by the additional of a session control in the next Service Pack. Otherwise the complaining about lighting will never end!

    Paul
    Gamma and brightness, - They are not the same or a substitute for one another! I would very much like to repeat Paul's statement as it is the crux of the matter and is the main reason why this thread was started in the first place.
    As someone who works with textures and does asset reskinning this is something I know very well. So while changing the default gamma setting from 2.2 to 2.0 would be an improvement, the ideal fix would be to have a gamma slider alongside the brightness slider.
    Last edited by KotangaGirl; July 28th, 2021 at 04:56 PM. Reason: formatting
    Narcolepsy is not napping.



  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by pware View Post
    As I posted earlier in this endless thread, it wouldn't matter what the default value is set to (2.0 or 2.2 or something else) there will always be those who will not like it. I also pointed out that the current "situation" with Gamma and the other PP settings almost exactly mirrors that with the Effect Layer settings when they were first introduced (was it in TANE??). They were set to defaults (which obviously would not suit some) and there was no way to save changes you made to them for use in other routes. Now Trainz Plus allows users to save the Effect Layer settings as separate cdp files. While this is for Trainz Plus only it will, down the track (pun intended), also appear in TRS19 or its successor.

    I suspect that the same will probably happen to the PP settings but, like all things that involve personal preferences, the complaints about lighting will never end.

    Why didn't N3V introduce saving the PP settings right from the start? You would have to ask them but I suspect that with any new (or newly revealed/accessible) properties you would not want users to be able to save them until their exact format has been finally nailed down. Otherwise you could get a similar situation that occurred between TANE and TANE SP1 (I think it was) which used incompatible map file formats.

    My opinions (and getting tired of flogging this dead horse).

    I'm obviously missing something. In TANE to me it looks realistic and if I load up a session / layout that someone else has made it looks realistic.

    In TS19 I'm unable to do the same. I can go in every time and change the Gamma value but it forgets it at the end of the session.

    I'm beginning to agree with you though it looks as if TS19 is a dead horse and we should just give up on it. Saves a lot of effort messing round with fbx exporters and pbr materials.

    Cheerio John

  5. #80
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    All that is needed is the ability to save the Gamma setting!

    Then you can choose how unrealistic/realistic your route can look and save it!

    Even a dead horse might understand that.

    Graham
    Member of TCWW and Trainz DE.

    Currently bringing the DHR into TRS19 one tree at a time!

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by pware View Post
    As I posted earlier in this endless thread, it wouldn't matter what the default value is set to (2.0 or 2.2 or something else) there will always be those who will not like it.
    I'm sorry I should have spelt it out more simply. TS19 currently has a default gamma that can be adjusted via the menus. Logically this means within TS19 there is a numeric value which sets the default Gamma. In theory you should be able to use a hex editor on the TS19.exe file or a config file depending where the value is held to change the default value. I'm not asking for all copies of TS19 to have the value set. Just someway for those of us that it is a major problem can have a solution. I understand that you feel you personally do not have a problem and therefore feel that anyone else is imagining things.

    A note to Tony a number of us feel we have a problem, we have been experimenting with the lighting in TS19 for some three years now. Adjusting the gamma seems to give us the results we desire and is very similar to TANE hence the request. I haven't seen anything in your suggested solutions that hits the nail on the head.

    Cheerio John

  7. #82
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    The settings are actually in the shader files somewhere which one could edit, as you can look at them in notepad, presumably as it's the gamma setting in the HSV (Presumably the Hue Saturation values?) section of the post processing settings. however editing would probably screw up future updates if the file or files are different re crc checks etc. Just a guess but maybe the post processing settings are editing the cached shaders not the actual ones which is why they can't be saved.

    Time I wasn't here, just gone 2am .....
    Malc


  8. #83
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    Malc, you are correct. As it was in TANE, if you edit the shaders the game will fail to update. The remedy of course is to keep a backup of the original.

    Graeme

  9. #84
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    I fully accept (and always have accepted) that a long term solution here may be to provide a means of saving the post processing settings but, as any programmer will tell you, making sudden changes to a program just to appease the demands of a vocal group (even a majority) is not the way to do it. I would hope that such a change, if it does occur, will appear in a future release after thorough alpha and beta testing, and we all know how long that takes.

    I would also hope that this cosmetic change, if it does happen, does not take priority over more serious operational issues (such as portals not working, etc) that are being dealt with in the current beta.

    Folks, please remember that Trainz is a game or a hobby. Apologies to the zealots and purists.

    My opinions (politely expressed).
    Trainz Plus build 111951 and build 114205
    Trainz Simulator 3 (Mobile)

  10. #85
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    Using the default lighting settings as a starting base, I've been able to achieve this in TRS19. It's not harsh and represents, pretty closely, an early July humid morning around 10:00 am. As the day wears on, the fog dissipates and returns towards evening. Being seaside, Gloucester has a lot of fog and humidity as the tide changes and the sea breeze comes and goes. Given that we generally sit at 75-85% humidity all summer, I tried my best to catch that hot-sticky July morning pretty much like we've had all this summer.

    So in the end it's achievable, but it did take some work. As was expressed above, it would be nice if the PP-settings were savable. This setup I have didn't employ those because I didn't feel like setting them up each time I used the session. We were told when TANE first came out that the unsavable PP-settings was a temporary thing. I guess the development team thinks temporary like my city does when they dig up a street and put the wood horses in place. We did come up with soon(tm) here sometime ago.

    Anyway, here's a sample from my Gloucester Terminal Electric taken at Gloucester in the current beta.

    Attached Images Attached Images
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
    Trainz User ID: 124863
    T:ANE Build: 94829
    TRS2019/Trainz-PLUS: 109641

  11. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by pware View Post
    I fully accept (and always have accepted) that a long term solution here may be to provide a means of saving the post processing settings but, as any programmer will tell you, making sudden changes to a program just to appease the demands of a vocal group (even a majority) is not the way to do it. I would hope that such a change, if it does occur, will appear in a future release after thorough alpha and beta testing, and we all know how long that takes.

    I would also hope that this cosmetic change, if it does happen, does not take priority over more serious operational issues (such as portals not working, etc) that are being dealt with in the current beta.

    Folks, please remember that Trainz is a game or a hobby. Apologies to the zealots and purists.

    My opinions (politely expressed).
    Saving a gamma value may be the solution in the same way the sun may be our solar system's source of heat and light.

    Not a single person in this thread except you has suggested a sudden implementation of any sort, but that N3V or Tony at the simply acknowledge that this is an issue and that it is being considered. Nobody is saying it must be done now, and nobody is saying it must take priority over anything else. Your posts - in this thread, to say nothing of elsewhere - have been dismissive and generally on an off-tangent to the point of this thread which at the very least you have admitted to be missing. Saving a gamma value has nothing to do with brightness or hue or saturation, nothing to do with technological progress, and nothing to do with backyards.

    My opinions (also politely expressed), on behalf of the "zealots and purists".
    Last edited by nicky9499; July 28th, 2021 at 10:42 PM.

  12. #87
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    I've watched this thread with interest and I just don't understand the "severity" of this issue. With every screenshot presented as having a "drastic" "gamma" issue that "ruins everything", I look at the shot and first see countless things that ruin the shot way before any environmental setting. I see rail that looks like toys, people that look like they are in a cartoon, etc, etc, etc and yet look at the angst created because I can't get the sky or grass to be the EXACT shade it should be, and then to talk about for a particular location!

    Meanwhile, there are real problems and show stoppers in some areas that need fixing and yet... we worry about the tint of sky and grass.

    I do agree that environmental settings are a problem, but I have no sympathy for anyone complaining about the sky or grass not being perfect when there are other major problems that need fixing.

    I am amazed that threads like this get the attention they do from N3V. When I quietly and respectfully submit a Bug Report as one is asked to do, day after day passes with no response.

    Meanwhile, there are, no doubt, countless users of TRS19 who have never once looked at the environment settings.

    And so is life in the world of N3V, TRS19, and it's users.
    TRS19: Std SP3, Plus SP2, SP3, Beta 114400; Tane SP4

  13. #88
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    All people/users are different, what for 1 person is a show-stopper is not important for another.
    What i try here, is not get annoyed by anything Trainz related (life is too short)
    If there is something I don't like I speak up (FI in suggestions boxcar thread)
    if it won't get processed by n3v, no problem I write/find my own workaround
    Don't need features/errors I never asked for (sadly Service Packs sofar) so stick with a version that i like best
    N3v is a small crew I respect their choices even if they are not mine.
    Find a version of Trainz you like best and just make your own route/items and have fun with it.


    if the lighting/gamma bothers you:
    -Stay with T:ANE
    -or learn to use the TRS19 environment settings, tweak each session seperate to your liking and save
    -or have the Launcher, Developer tab, Show post-processing open on a seperate monitor,
    set it to mode [Manual] and set [v]HSV, then adjust gamma [2.0] or lower
    -or copy the TRS19 executable to a safe place and hexedit, find 2.2, replace by 2.0 save, restart game
    (tested works here in build 100240)


    greetings GM

  14. #89
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    Look at the screenshots on post #55.

    Now tell me that washed out look is acceptable.
    Last edited by euromodeller; July 29th, 2021 at 08:53 AM.

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