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Thread: Auran 'unknown' assets

  1. #16
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    As a customer, not a developer, this item caught my attention:

    all you need to do is open your route and delete missing assets to restore the older assets.

    All of the various labels in the Content database are confusing. I suspect that some labels are condition based such that an old asset, with a label, is not the same as a new asset with the same label. 2 months from now I will not remember that trick and thus be in an unpleasant situation caused by a product that is supposed to bring enjoyment and satisfaction.

    All that is really being done is to stack up various remedial "tricks" as issues arise. A true house of cards.
    Dick near Pittsburgh, Pa. i5-2500K 4.2ghz, 8gb memory, GTX1060 3gb video card. 111951

  2. #17

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    You can gloss most things over with time but the DLS & DLC approach is a mess. You know what they say ...'You can't polish a turd' and that's what what we have with the current situation. I totally agree with Dinorius_Redundicus, well said.

  3. #18
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    The more I think about it and the more often I encounter these so-called "improvements" to my uploaded objects, the more I'm resenting the time and effort it will take to obsolete them on the DLS when I could be creating new objects.


    70337:
    TRS19 Platinum, build 110491 SP2, Win10 Pro 64 bit, i7-7700 3.6GHz 16 GB, GTX 1070 Ti

  4. #19
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    Hi All
    Recently we have made a lot of changes to how DLC packs, including builtin content, are packaged.

    The first is that DLC packs will automatically detect if content is from the DLS or not. This includes asset updates (ie if an updated asset is non DLS, then it gets seen as a non DLS asset).

    If a non DLS asset is submitted along with a DLC pack, then the DLC pack won't be processed till the creator of that non DLS asset authorises through the TCCP website.

    If the creator of the asset authorises, then that is up to them. Generally it would be preferred that the updates be placed onto the DLS, but we cannot force a creator to do this.

    For builtin content, we use essentially the same system to build the content packs now, so unless something extreme occurs we shouldn't see this issue. We do aim these days for any updates that may be required to be placed onto the DLS, in part because it actually simplifies building the DLS package (it can just pull the asset from the DLS).


    In regards to updates to DLS assets that have previously ended up in DLC packs or the builtin content set, I have pointed out a few times that if the assets are reported to us through the helpdesk then we can organize to get these up to the DLS. Generally it happens within 2-3 days of the report, depending on how busy I am at the time

    I'm not saying this is infallible, we are talking about both people, and man made computer programs here. Hence why, if it does occur, simply contacting us should get it resolved within a few days now.


    In regards to updates in general, these are normally done where an asset is faulty or not working. We avoid this as much as possible, but sometimes we do find we need to repair an asset internally. Unfortunately when dealing with content that is to be builtin in Trainz, faulty dependencies need to be fixed as quickly as possible, and waiting for a creator may not always work well.

    For localisation, the asset may be given a new revision number to ensure that the version with the localization is used; again these days if any changes like this are made then we do try to ensure that it is updated onto the DLS. However with TRS19 we have avoided localizing most builtin content, and only localized interfaces in Trainz itself, and as such this issue should become far far less common than previous versions.

    EDIT: I missed one

    If an update has been made to your asset by us, and it has broken something, please let me know. At worst, I can try to find out why it was done; at best we may be able to assist with resolving it. Especially since the update would have been made in relation to something here, so it would likely need us to look into it again anyway

    Regards
    Zec Murphy

    Customer Support Rep
    N3V Games (Auran)

    *Please do not use Private Messages for support. Support can only be provided via the helpdesk, or via the forums.

  5. #20
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    ty Zec,


    583240 assets on the DLS, half of the assets is there double
    its not needed to change the kuid/version if you just add language tags/localisation
    because the basic functionality is not changed.
    ok some will have the ones without, but they work fine.


    I understand there is a crew of users helping with assets on the DLS?
    Why not a forum part, where they post what they do/updated and why
    and where users can suggest changes to repair?


    If DLC packs are made of routes, it could just contain the route and sessions
    all other stuff its handier if its DLS items. and specially not with locked textures.


    MP routes require dependencies on the DLS, what happens
    people steal content from external sites, give it their kuid and upload to DLS
    this is serious polution and not fair to original creators.
    The key of a MP route/session is that everyone has the same content right?
    remove the DLS requirement and you keep it all cleaner.
    Its up to the content creator where he offers items.
    Its up to the user, to get those items.


    Too much time is currently wasted to get and repair stuff.
    this is not play/enjoy time. Trainz should be fun, right?
    greetings GM

  6. #21
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    Hi G.M.
    Quote Originally Posted by G.M. View Post
    583240 assets on the DLS, half of the assets is there double
    Trainz's asset system uses the 'KUID2' system to obsolete/update assets.

    So the initial release of an asset is kuid:12345:9876.

    If you make any changes after release, and wish to release these updates/changes in any way, you must create a new revision of the asset.

    The first revision of the asset in this case would be kuid2:12345:9876:1

    After you release this, any further revisions must have the last number (ie :1 above) upped by a number. So the second revision will be kuid2:12345:9876:2, the third revision would be kuid2:12345:9876:3, and so on.

    This is a fundamental function of the KUID/assetID system in Trainz.

    its not needed to change the kuid/version if you just add language tags/localisation
    because the basic functionality is not changed.
    ok some will have the ones without, but they work fine.
    As with software, if you make a change to an asset, and it is to be released in any way, that change results in a new revision. This means that the KUID number's revision number must be increased.


    I understand there is a crew of users helping with assets on the DLS?
    Why not a forum part, where they post what they do/updated and why
    and where users can suggest changes to repair?
    To protect the members of the CRG from being abused by other members (which did occur when the content repair system was public!), the CRG is a private group. Their role is only to make the minimum changes needed to repair their content, so that it remains error free. All CRG updates are placed onto the DLS.

    Again, any time they make an update it becomes a new revision.

    When an asset is added to the repair list, the creator will be informed of the errors that resulted in it being there. We are aware of some assets where the emails may not have been received, however when this was looked into an the emails were sent out for the reported assets.


    If DLC packs are made of routes, it could just contain the route and sessions
    all other stuff its handier if its DLS items. and specially not with locked textures.
    All DLC packs need to contain all required assets within them.

    This in part is to simplify installation for users, by making it fully self-contained.

    However it's also a requirement for DLC packs sold through some stores, in particular through Steam and through the AppStore.

    It must be noted that DLS content in DLC packs is not encrypted. The only change that occurs during this packaging is the same as if the asset were included within Trainz (even back to TRS2004...), which is conversion of the image and .texture.txt files to a single .texture file which is the native texture format for Trainz(and yes, the original source image and .texture.txt file are removed). These assets can be overwritten with the DLS asset, if you install the DLS asset from a cdp file from the DLS; or can be overwritten with a local copy of the asset if you have one.

    This .texture format sometimes changes as the technologies in Trainz change, but it is not an encrypted or locked format.


    MP routes require dependencies on the DLS, what happens
    people steal content from external sites, give it their kuid and upload to DLS
    this is serious polution and not fair to original creators.
    The key of a MP route/session is that everyone has the same content right?
    remove the DLS requirement and you keep it all cleaner.
    Its up to the content creator where he offers items.
    Its up to the user, to get those items.
    A key requirement of multiplayer is that everyone has exactly the same content as each other. Not just the same asset ID, but that the content is not changed as well.

    A good example of this is if players have the same industry 'asset' installed, but player 1's is 20m shorter than the original because it was locally edited to use a shorter mesh (or they received a modified copy from another website/source).

    In this situation, player 1 is going to be seeing a broken track. He may avoid that location, but player 2 with the correct longer asset drives through there. On player 2's screen the train passes over it fine, but on player 1's screen the train derails. This suddenly results in the train both being derailed and not derailed, which should generally then result in player 2's train just suddenly derailing (since it has derailed).

    This isn't fair to player 2, but also causes player 1 to not be able to use all of the route.

    The solution here is to ensure that only assets with the following statuses can be used in multiplayer: 'builtin', 'installed from DLS', or 'installed, payware'. Or more specifically, any asset marked as 'modified' cannot be used in multiplayer.

    If other people are releasing a creator's content without their permission on the DLS, then the creator simply needs to contact us to request it be removed. Except on weekends, this is generally processed within 24-48 hours of receiving the report...

    But we can only do this when the creator reports it to us.

    Too much time is currently wasted to get and repair stuff.
    this is not play/enjoy time. Trainz should be fun, right?
    Yes, Trainz should be fun. And a bit part of that for us has been to streamline installing content as much as possible. This is why we package all dependencies into DLC packs, so that users don't need to go on dependency hunts on their DLC pack purchases (or have to work out how to install DLS dependencies on a DLC pack).

    This is also why we have introduced the Content Repair Group system, so that faulty assets are repaired instead of making players have to work out why the content is faulty, and then have to work out how to repair it.

    This is also why we have error checking on new DLS uploads, to ensure that new uploads meet the current requirements for Trainz. And yes, these can change as we find new issues/problems that are being found or caused by specific assets that have bugs/errors/issues in them.

    Regards
    Zec Murphy

    Customer Support Rep
    N3V Games (Auran)

    *Please do not use Private Messages for support. Support can only be provided via the helpdesk, or via the forums.

  7. #22
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    TY, Zec
    A well written wall of text defending the choices, will not solve the problem unfortunately
    actually listening and doing something with the feedback from the community will.


    I know how the system with kuid2 works, I choose not to use it in 2004, to keep polution to a minimum
    what is not used and already in the game is this: Parent_ID

    I've written the version the user installs and what version of Trainz its for
    So what you can do to keep it clean (keep the kuid or kuid2) yet the info screen shows a version
    this reduces the number of items on the DLS and keeps it cleaner.


    DLC
    If the choice is a DLC contains all items, fine, but then the items cannot be used later in routes people build
    a route builder does not know easy which item is DLC or DLS at the moment he places it in Surveyor
    there is no easy filter, in the top menubar where you can turn ALL DLC/payware items off.


    .texture.txt
    cost me 1000's of hours, drove me away from Trainz for 11 years
    and is a dayly annoyance to all trainz content creators and users,
    just have to read the forum posts.


    MP
    We agree for MP all users need the same items, it makes sense,
    not where the actual dependencies are hosted.
    By being stubborn and only allow DLS, you limit MP and polute the DLS.


    Stolen items, only the creator can ask to remove ? no that is wrong
    If you host stolen items, you are in the wrong I'm afraid.


    I respond and write because I love Trainz,
    I see the dayly struggle many new users and even veterans have
    How over the years the system has become too complex and poluted
    often because of wrong choices in the past.


    Stop typing and fix SP3 pretty please with cherry on top :-)
    greetings GM

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by G.M. View Post
    actually listening and doing something with the feedback from the community will.
    We actually do listen, and take on a lot of feedback. But where something is not going to be changed (or we have a method that is the recommended or correct way of achieving a result) we will let you know what this is... This is what I've been doing here.


    I know how the system with kuid2 works, I choose not to use it in 2004, to keep polution to a minimum
    So you intend to provide no way for route builders, session creators, and end users to ensure that they have the correct version of your asset installed.

    In other words, a session builder users the latest 'update' (actually not an update, it's the same asset...) to your asset. End user has an 'older' version installed. They then strike issues with it not working. Both users see the same asset installed. There is no obvious way for them to know this, without knowing that they need to view the details...

    Or, you can use new revisions which ensures that the session *requires* at minimum the version of asset used during it's creation.

    what is not used and already in the game is this: Parent_ID
    This is definitely used. It is used to tell you which route is required for a session.

    I've written the version the user installs and what version of Trainz its for
    So what you can do to keep it clean (keep the kuid or kuid2) yet the info screen shows a version
    this reduces the number of items on the DLS and keeps it cleaner.
    If you release this asset on the DLS, you would have no way of releasing any further updates unless you use the kuid2 revision system or an obsolete table (and a whole new KUID). We don't allow overwriting of an asset already on the DLS.

    If the choice is a DLC contains all items, fine, but then the items cannot be used later in routes people build
    a route builder does not know easy which item is DLC or DLS at the moment he places it in Surveyor
    there is no easy filter, in the top menubar where you can turn ALL DLC/payware items off.
    The asset on the DLS and in the DLC pack are the same asset, minus the compression of textures in the DLC pack.

    The filter system, in both Content Manager and Surveyor, allows you to filter assets that are:

    'on download station' (with both true/false options; so you can also list assets not on the DLS)
    'builtin' (again with both true and false options)
    'payware' (again with both true and false options)

    and many many more filter options. I'd definitely recommend checking them out


    .texture.txt
    cost me 1000's of hours, drove me away from Trainz for 11 years
    and is a dayly annoyance to all trainz content creators and users,
    just have to read the forum posts.
    The .texture.txt format has been a requirement of Trainz for about 20 years now. Yes, if you didn't follow the guidelines, you could sometimes make content work without it, but this content was considered incorrectly built and later versions correctly displayed it as faulty.

    The .texture.txt file provides you a range of options to configure how each individual texture file is handled by Trainz; you may not personally need any of these however many creators do need them...

    When an asset is submitted, Trainz converts the provided image file and the .texture.txt file to a graphics card native format. This greatly improves performance of loading textures, and allows generation of the mipmaps etc. This is an essential part of game operation, not doing this both slows down the loading of textures, but also impacts the usage of the textures whilst in Trainz, both of which result in poorer performance.

    There's tools available now that can automatically generate the .texture.txt file if you need it, and Trainz itself can automatically generate these when you submit an asset that uses the FBX/trainzmesh format.

    MP
    We agree for MP all users need the same items, it makes sense,
    not where the actual dependencies are hosted.
    By being stubborn and only allow DLS, you limit MP and polute the DLS.
    Again, there is no way to ensure that all users have exactly the same assets installed unless they are from a 'reliable' source that Trainz can check.

    You've already proven to me that you don't understand how to ensure that each player has the same version of an asset installed, by refusing to use the revision system (and instead hoping players read the description and understand your personal version numbering system). So I'm not sure it's worth actually discussing this one further.

    Stolen items, only the creator can ask to remove ? no that is wrong
    If you host stolen items, you are in the wrong I'm afraid.
    The only people who know for sure that those items are stolen/uploaded without permission are the creator and the uploader. Anyone else is either guessing, or playing word-of-mouth.

    I have had multiple cases of people contacting us saying an asset was uploaded without permission, when it wasn't their asset, and the asset was actually uploaded with permission, because they didn't like the uploader. Same happens with forum post reports, and so on.

    So no, we won't accept some random person reporting stolen content. We will accept any report from the original creator of the asset, and will act on it as required.

    I've been in the community for a good 17 years now; making content in my spare time for 16 years, and working to help this community for the last 12 years. My aim is always to provide the best information I can, but all I can do is provide that information, I can't make you use it. If you don't wish to use it, then that is fine, but that is also your choice, and you need to be prepared for things to not go the way you want...

    Trainz is, and has been for most of it's life, been designed to be as accessible for a wide range of users as possible. This includes making it easy for players to know they have the latest version of an asset installed, and now easy for players to install additional content.

    Regards
    Zec

    ZecRail Freelance D1s, Victorian Railways Type 4 DD and Type 4 D1s, and more also available.

    Zecrail freeware DLS Content
    All comments are my own unless otherwise stated.

  9. #24
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    I will not change to another user account(simply dont have another) to reply
    Noone doubts your value to Trainz or the community, cool you also do TRS in your free time, same here.


    I can write books how I traveled my country to go to train fairs, to promote TRS2004,
    with a pc in a shopping bag showing your product without any thanks or payment but I won't.


    The dayly mails I receive, of users needing items fixed, I do it with love.
    I try to keep the dutch users interested for Trainz but many just give up.
    why? SP's that break not improve.


    on topic, how does any of our typing solve:
    -'unknown' Auran assets (the start of this topic)
    -insane number of versions, that no-one understands or can find
    -DLC vs DLS and the mess it creates
    -Near impossible to actually play MP
    -Polution on the DLS (stolen or not)
    -the struggles users have (just read the forums)


    again, please fix SP3 so we can move on
    greetings GM

  10. #25
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    Just a note on one point, Kuid 2's are essential and simply and certainly no problem. Example (and this is from personal experience), make an asset and upload it, then find you've made a mistake or forgotten to add a feature, or simply want to improve it (like me making driveable ships then working out how to add crew). Update the item, don't clone it. Upload to the DLS and when anyone downloads it, they get the latest better version and the old one is obsoleted. Simple I'd say.
    Working on Trainz.

  11. #26
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    Sure Alikiwi, I see why it was done, but after your update there are now 2 versions on the DLS right? that's the polution i talk about
    so the 583314 we now see on the DLS are maybe just 200k unique items and many doubles or triples.
    If I host my own content and have full access, I can keep it clean, besides that I can offer it at much faster speed.

  12. #27
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    Hi G.m.
    It seems you have no plans to actually use the KUID system properly, such as creating actual updates for assets, nor to use the DLS to release assets, so I'm pretty certain it's not worth continuing here...

    But please remember it is then up to you to explain to users why they need to overwrite, and submit edits. And how to ensure that they have the latest version, or why a session isn't working because they have an old version installed, because you choose to use your own versioning system that Trainz doesn't recognize


    On the topic of the DLS, as a test, right now, there are approximately 389448 unique assets on the DLS, according to my Content Manager here. This is excluding old revisions of the same asset (the 'Download Station' filter preset in Content Manager is setup to automatically exclude out of date/obsoleted assets). It of course may include clones by other members, or cases where a creator has made an entirely new asset to release an upgrade (ie there's two totally separate assets for the 'old' and 'new' versions). But in terms of the assetID system, there's 389k unique assets on the DLS.


    This is compared to a total of 548039 assets on the DLS (again according to Content Manager). So of the 548039 assets, there are 158,591 assets that are obsoleted versions of assets. So not the '200k unique items' you suggest, but rather 150k items that have been updated/repaired over the last 18 or so years, out of 548k assets.

    Since you have again given me a list to reply to...

    -'unknown' Auran assets (the start of this topic)
    If it was a DLS asset, and an update is in a DLC pack, let us know and we can place that asset onto the DLS. Pretty simple, and I've repeated this quite a few times. I'm the one that normally processes these uploads, so I can say it gets done pretty quick...

    If it's exclusive to a DLC pack, then you'll need that DLC pack installed. No different to any other payware content really, if it's an exclusive part of a paid item, then you need to pay for and install that item to access it...

    -insane number of versions, that no-one understands or can find
    In all honesty, you seem to be the only one struggling to work out that out of kuid:12345:9876, kuid2:12345:9876:1, and kuid2:12345:9876:2 the latest version will have the highest number on the end...

    -DLC vs DLS and the mess it creates
    As I previously said, right now the DLC system builds the DLC pack using the assets from the DLS. It will be very rare that a non DLS update to a DLS asset ends up in a DLC pack, unless the creator of the asset authorises it.

    In the rare cases of this happening, simply letting us know (like I said above) will get it placed onto the DLS.

    Again, the filter tools in Content Manager will help you to verify if an asset is on the DLS or not. Even if shown as 'builtin', if it is on the DLS it would still be listed in the content list.

    -Near impossible to actually play MP
    I spent many hours over the lockdowns in Melbourne last year playing multiplayer Trainz with friends. It's definitely not 'near impossible' to play, but of course it does require following the rules for it. If you want to use a non DLS route, or non DLS content, then you're not going to be able to.


    -Polution on the DLS (stolen or not)
    One man's trash is another man's treasure. We do error checking on new uploads to ensure that they are error free, however we don't impose any 'minimum standard of quality' on content as who am I, or you, or any one else to judge that content is/isn't good enough to share (so long as it's error free, and not breaking the code of conduct).

    Sure, there's lots of content that isn't up to your personal taste's or standards. But that doesn't mean it's 'pollution'.


    I will not change to another user account(simply dont have another) to reply
    My apologies if using my personal account, during my personal time, offended you... I try to avoid using my work account during my personal time, unless I absolutely need to.

    Regards
    Zec Murphy

    Customer Support Rep
    N3V Games (Auran)

    *Please do not use Private Messages for support. Support can only be provided via the helpdesk, or via the forums.

  13. #28

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    Hi Zec
    My content manager for SP3 111951 shows the following in CM

    389448 = mine 343366 I am 46082 assets short
    548039 = mine 581603 I have 33564 more assets
    158591 = mine 029557 I have 129034 fewer assets

    Basic 110491 download shows, Installed Payware
    389448 = mine 382455, Payware 1453
    548039 = mine 551897, 551897
    158591 = mine 009724, Obsolete Payware 2


    Sp2 with some DLC packs shows, Installed Payware
    389448 = mine 343099, Payware 5299
    548039 = mine 541638, 581638
    158591 = mine 029787, Obsolete Payware 349
    Last edited by stagecoach; May 14th, 2021 at 05:10 AM.

  14. #29
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    TY Zec, ofc. I'm not offended if you use another account it's your personal choice.
    and that you type in your free time is appreciated (give the guy a raise!)


    What we reached sofar:
    first I got info I didn't know:
    -Now know how many are unique so 150k updated
    -We do not know how many items are copies under another kuid (you'll be surprised)
    -I learned that Parent_ID, is actually used, TY


    I may be an annoying user to N3v but I see on the forums not everyone dares to speak up
    many users facing over complex ways of getting items not knowing why it does not work.
    I respect you stand by choices made in the past even if not handy.


    Try to do something with the problems users have,
    not reply bug reports with standard, it's your fault or its current design answers.
    If you don't see how for many its a mess, we have a serious problem.


    We (I hope) want Trainz to be fun user-friendly for any user,
    not turn into some elite forgotten game, where only those that studied remain.


    I also play another game for the last 17 years called Runescape (jagex UK)
    they listened to and implemented what I bring in (and other users ofc.)
    it went from a kitchen table developed game to a million+ subscribed users
    its a total different genre, but development is comparable.


    I love Trainz, thats why i post, help users and make content.
    I know you also do
    greetings GM

  15. #30
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    This is getting somewhat over complicated?

    Conclusion, if it was on the DLS but has been superseded by an updated payware or builtin, let Zec know and the update will be put on the DLS, this works as it was done for some of my assets, I may add very quickly so no harm done.

    Or as I did some time ago upload updates myself for a few items to correct the problem, not worth getting all wound up over IMO ;o)
    Malc


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