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Thread: TRS19 Service Pack 3 Official Release

  1. #211
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    Sounds like a "snippets" library to me. Not just copy and paste but copy selection to "snippet" library (scrapbook) and then open the library and use at any time later, same route or different route. Just another guess... we'll have to wait and see.
    TRS19: Std SP3, Plus SP2, Plus SP3, Plus Beta 114400; Tane SP4

  2. #212
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    A place where all the things that don't work go so we wont forget them
    An anti pick list !



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  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Hilliam View Post
    A new beta edition is coming soon with a range of fixes. This includes turntables (new rotation info wasn't being saved).

    Re: Allowing to copy between routes
    >>
    Well now, I'd be starting to spill some beans if I went into too much detail, but let's just say for now we'll be introducing a new feature called "Scrapbook". (Cue the rumour mill about what that means...).
    Consider the "sailor-proofing" of existing features and catching-up on the documentation of the existing sim versus adding new features. The exposition in post #193 revealed documentation is lagging further behind. Consider fixing and refining of what is there before adding new things to be fixed/refined/documented.

  4. #214
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    As long as I can rotate and paste beyond the standard 90, 180 and 270 degrees this would be a very much appreciated feature!

    Paul

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by deneban View Post
    Consider the "sailor-proofing" of existing features and catching-up on the documentation of the existing sim versus adding new features. The exposition in post #193 revealed documentation is lagging further behind. Consider fixing and refining of what is there before adding new things to be fixed/refined/documented.
    Sadly, real documentation has been lacking from at least TRS2004, which came with an extensive user-guide and content-creator-guide, and other nice quick guide. I'm glad I still have books and PDFs tucked away. Even with the updates and changes made, much of that information is just as relevant today as it was back in 2003-2004 era.
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
    Trainz User ID: 124863
    T:ANE Build: 94829
    TRS2019/Trainz-PLUS: 109641

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Hilliam View Post
    A new beta edition is coming soon with a range of fixes. This includes turntables (new rotation info wasn't being saved).


    Thank you Tony, looking forward to trying that out. Don
    Don49plm

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCitron View Post
    Sadly, real documentation has been lacking from at least TRS2004, which came with an extensive user-guide and content-creator-guide, and other nice quick guide. I'm glad I still have books and PDFs tucked away. Even with the updates and changes made, much of that information is just as relevant today as it was back in 2003-2004 era.
    While I totally agree, I don't think that many users fully realise the problems involved in providing and maintaining adequate user documentation, which is probably why many software developers skip it or provide it at a very minimal and/or inadequate level. There will, of course, be many different interpretations of what "adequate user documentation" is.

    Going from printed (on paper) to digital (e.g. PDF, Web) documentation is not as great a saving in time and effort as one might think. I speak from experience in the commercial production (writing and editing) of both paper and digital documents. The development time (writing, editing, proof reading, fact checking, getting permissions, etc) involved in both forms is much the same. While the digital form does not have the extra delays involved in the printing and distribution, it has other "delay factors" such as ironing out the differences between different platforms and software packages. PDF, Web and Wiki are not the universal "one size fits all" display formats that some may believe them to be.

    Keeping existing documentation up to date is not a simple process either. In the case of software documentation each new version release or Service Pack can force entire sections (even chapters) to be rewritten and new sections added. Each change requires the usual checks (proof reading, corrections, etc) but also "back checking" with the rest of the documentation for consistency. One of the issues I always had when editing the work of multiple writers into the one document was enforcing a consistent style. There were times when I had to rewrite the entire contribution of an author.

    In short, adequate documentation is expensive to produce - it takes resources and it takes time. Unless you are Micro$oft, Apple, Adobe, etc, both could often be better used in improving and updating the product. I think that most users would argue that getting a feature to work is more important than documenting why it doesn't.

    And what happened to the often quoted claim that "real geeks don't read manuals"?

    PS: I quite like the Trainz Wiki but it is very under utilized, both in creating new entries and reading those that are there. As I have found, keeping it updated takes time and effort.

    My thoughts.
    Trainz Plus build 111951 and build 114205
    Trainz Simulator 3 (Mobile)

  8. #218
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    I agree with what you've said here as well. I was involved with both sides of this process over the years. For nearly a decade, I worked as a typesetter and later desktop publisher who set the type and assembled the artwork. In my tech career, I wrote step-by-step guides and assisted the tech-writers in setting up versioning systems and dedicated servers strictly for their work. With that said, I understand the complexity of managing the jobs you described and as you said, getting multiple peeps to write in the same style is quite difficult as well some of the other aspects such as supplying the camera-ready artwork and ensuring that the in-pos are replaced before the job was sent to the printer for printing.

    Yes, the digital world has helped with a Wiki environment and for some tasks that is useful. The problem with the Wiki environment, however, is it's community driven and like many community driven projects this falls on the shoulders of a dedicated few. With that said, this may as well then become a regularly published work as well since so few people do contribute to the publication since this product really doesn't change a whole lot between versions. TANE and TRS19, perhaps being the exceptions, but most other changes are minimal. The regularly published work then could be supplied as a PDF rather than sent to a publisher for printing in order to save our trees and environment.

    As far as Microsoft, Adobe, and the other big players go, they too have gone away from the tech-writers and there are no longer actual manuals with their products. Today, all of their content is on the web and some of it is pretty poorly organized and much worse then it was when it was once in a user manual. Gone too from Microsoft is their wonderful Tech-net library which was once supplied on disc complete with a fully searchable database of information on their latest releases. That too is yet another link on their website and difficult to search just like everything else.

    As it stands now, much of what we have been given is a big secret with TRS19 until we discover the new features. This actually has been the way since TANE. TS12 and prior were more or less the same product with under-the-hood changes and some minimal updates which really didn't matter. This to me is a shame because this makes it difficult not only to create new content, but also to troubleshoot issues and provide tech support. A list of known-issues is a plus, but as always we need more since the company relies on the community for its life and blood. Without understanding changes, and without knowing pitfalls when creating content, this makes the product look poor as well as makes it difficult to progress. And with that said, I understand that a small organization such as N3V has to manage its expenses and employees' time carefully, and it's best to focus on the fixes and new products, yet some time needs to be spent on better documentation as well.
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
    Trainz User ID: 124863
    T:ANE Build: 94829
    TRS2019/Trainz-PLUS: 109641

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by deneban View Post
    Consider the "sailor-proofing" of existing features and catching-up on the documentation of the existing sim versus adding new features. The exposition in post #193 revealed documentation is lagging further behind. Consider fixing and refining of what is there before adding new things to be fixed/refined/documented.
    There is ever present the danger of "Tribal Knowledge" setting in when documentation is too far behind the development. Trainz is particularly susceptible to this danger having both developer and content creator factions: developer faction has a mental image of the basis of a Trainz convention while a content creator may develop a separate set of rationales for that entity, because neither has documentation wording to refer to that anchors their perceptions. Different parts of the "tribe" evolve different understandings of a given Trainz convention or entity based on their experience. A case in point currently are the standard "Asset Categories" (aka "ACHC" , "ACHG" , etc..) Trainz uses to determine an asset's behavior in the simulation. From my investigations, there is no documented coordination between the developer's and content creator's use of these parameters (only a half-completed and abandoned Wiki Page [are they even still in use by TRS19 et al?]). The result could be broken assets with no apparent rationale for the breakage.

    And so given Trainz's susceptibility to the dangers of "Tribal Knowledge", I urge Tony to concentrate on documenting the existing Trainz conventions and features over creating new features that need to start from square 1 with their documentation/fixing/sailor-proofing cycles.

  10. #220
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    I have experience in this area also. Simple answer: People don't read the docs! Just look at the forums for games that do have great docs. It's obvious that people don't read them. First thing they do is post to a forum.

    Example: It's very frustrating building a HELP section on a website detailing how to "Install an eBook download on a Kindle" (or whatever) and yet getting floods of emails asking how to do that very thing. There's even a "Kindle Help" link on each download page just under the Buy button. But analytics shows that very few people click the Help/Doc links. Do I wish there were great docs? Yes. But I understand fully why there is not.
    TRS19: Std SP3, Plus SP2, Plus SP3, Plus Beta 114400; Tane SP4

  11. #221
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    Posting questions on the forum that could be answered by reading a manual is much easier and a lot less work. Who has the time or interest to read a manual these days? Posting questions that have been answered by previous forum posts is also a lot easier than searching the forum (which I admit is not easy to do) for the answer.

    I am impressed by the patience and knowledge of those many users who do answer all those "how do I" posts. I suspect that it would get easier each time you answer exactly the same question and it does make you look like a genius.
    Trainz Plus build 111951 and build 114205
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  12. #222
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    I think I saw this discussion on another post, but my answer there was I worked in IT for decades and had shelves of Manuals, training texts, and thick third party books on dozens of systems and types of software. But for the last twenty years or more, if I had a question my first resource for any question was always - Google.
    “We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best we can find in our travels is an honest friend.” - R.L.S.

  13. #223

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    What's happened with kind "hornsound" after SP3? The sound file "horn.wav" is not playing fully, only the first 2 secs of the full length. And this with tag:
    Code:
    two-part                                0
    If you make changes in some areas of game, make also changes in your wiki.

  14. #224
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    Well, I just had an unpleasant surprise.
    Background; I have done no route building or mods in a looong time.....SO, today I added some track and junctions to an existing route. I did this in a layer added to the route. After I added the track, I also added a few static objects and then went into Driver Mode to see how things worked. I found a few things that needed changing, so back to Surveyor Mode. After an hour or so I found that I could not make a junction, no matter what I tried.
    At that point I did a "save as" of the route. When I reopened the route, all my work done after the Driver session was GONE.
    It is obvious to me that the Surveyor/Driver switching is NOT performing as advertised!
    This is NOT a Test, I hope!

  15. #225
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    A couple of points I would make.

    Firstly 9 times out of 10 when this occurs it is confusion between saving just the route and saving the route and a session. I know you stated that "I did this in a layer added to the route" but was it a route layer or a session layer? Both will "appear" to be part of the route but the session layers are only saved with the session, not the route that the session belongs to.

    When you did a "Save As" of the route, the session layers were not saved. That makes me suspect that the additional work you did was in the "session-layer".

    Secondly, a lesson I learnt a long time ago is to always put all track and track objects into the same "route-layer" which is at the top of the Route Layer Group. Once you start putting track and track objects into different layers then you could be asking for trouble. There is no good reason that I know of for putting track and track objects in any layer other than the top level "route-layer". I did some experiments on this, having different track sections in different layers, many years ago when layers first appeared and it was a disaster.

    EDIT There is one exception to the "There is no good reason that I know of for putting track and track objects in any layer other than the top level "route-layer"" rule - trackmarks. I often create different sessions with different driver objectives that require different sets of trackmarks that are stored in a session layer and only apply to that particular session.
    Last edited by pware; May 19th, 2021 at 08:17 PM.
    Trainz Plus build 111951 and build 114205
    Trainz Simulator 3 (Mobile)

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