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Thread: "installed Payware" problem.

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZecMurphy View Post
    Hi All
    This has been covered a few times, but to clarify.

    Last year we switched over to the TCCP 2.0 system for DLC pack submissions. This changes a lot how DLC packs are now packaged, including the handling of freeware/payware content. Note that older DLC packs may not be updated to this, unless they are specifically updated through TCCP2.0.

    As it stands now, it is entirely up to the creator of the DLC pack to specify exactly which content is to be marked as payware. So in a route DLC pack, this will normally be the route itself, plus often the sessions, and maybe specific content that they consider to be 'payware' content (ie if the route includes locomotives that would otherwise be released as payware if released separately). This avoids content being accidentally marked as payware, as it is now within the control of the DLC pack creator.

    This means that content in a DLC pack will have two statuses when installed (at the current time at least).

    installed, payware - This is for the content specified by the creator as being payware.
    builtin - This is for all other content included with the DLC pack (including all dependencies on the DLS, and any non DLS assets not marked as payware by the creator).


    We also have better support for non DLS dependencies. Specifically, creators can include these in their DLC pack. But they must get authorization from the original creator through the TCCP system (basically the original creator needs to sign into TCCP, and authorize either individual assets, or the whole lot). This should help avoid content being packaged in DLC packs without the original creator's permission

    For DLS content that had updates packaged in a DLC pack prior to the TCCP2.0 system being introduced (and hence being marked 'payware', as that asset revision wasn't on the DLS), please submit a helpdesk ticket with the assetID numbers and we can look into this. This will normally involve either the same asset being placed onto the DLS, or an update to the asset being placed onto the DLS.

    In regards to DLS content being included in DLC packs, this is done to ensure that anyone who purchases/installs a DLC pack has all dependencies needed for it to work installed in the one download. It is an extremely common complaint with content about having to download lots of dependencies, and so we have designed our DLC system to avoid this as much as possible (the main exception will be updated assets onto the DLS, which would be needed for any multiplayer sessions that are included).

    Regards
    I cannot get my head around this ( as I have zero interest in DLC so know zip about the concept, ) I cannot understand why TUMES commercial buildings included in my TANE version of timber ridge are now unable to be downloaded from the DLS and are seen by 2019 as an unknown asset . It's not so bad if one at last had any idea of what the asset actually is, but the only way I could find out was by looking at the TANE version of the route and comparing it with the 2019 version , which had identical content when I started working on it . A number of users who tried it out in 2019 had no unknown assets that originated from the DLS , but now there are quite a few , some of which ( the steelworks ) you were aware of from a previous discussion. Why are some items that were available just a few months ago no longer downloadable from the DLS , how does this help people with DLC content? How can anyone building a freeware route ever be sure that users will be able to find items that were on the DLS when the route was created if this is constantly happening ?
    Last edited by dangavel; April 13th, 2021 at 07:30 PM.
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  2. #17
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    May I suggest put in a bug report quoting the specific kuids.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alikiwi View Post
    On the subject of DLC route builders having to include ALL dependencies in the package (not even sure how you'd do that as dependency list doesn't show route or sessions), I did a quick look and comparison. The Canadian Rockies route is 255mb and has a mere 934 items, Golden BC is a whopping 682mb with 954 items. My Bathurst route is a mere 67mb BUT has 3,597 items! I think that will be a problem and a pain to package. But I don't see an answer (did I miss it?) as to why and how suddenly build 1.3/2 items are becoming payware when they aren't. That needs sorting.
    The new TCCP 2.0 system takes the kuid list from the route, sessions and does the bundling of the package into a tzarc file. Once on the TCCP system, if everything it finds is built-in or DLC content, it passes, but if a built-in or a DLC asset has a dependency, or a dependency of a dependency, that is payware or 3rd party (not on DLC), it fails. It's a PITA for the route creator as you won't find this out until after you submit the route and it's run through the build machine which takes 15 to 20 minutes to compile, or if you manually check list dependencies of the routes dependencies. My last submission took around 10 attempts to weed out the problem assets x 20 minutes each shot. That does not include time to find the assets and replace them with something else.

    Good news for most is that once you get a route that has run through the new build machine process, you should never see 'missing dependency' errors again.

    AFAIK, the bad news (for some) is that only routes version 4.7 and higher are being accepted which means you are going to have to have TRS19 SP2 or higher to get any of these new routes.

    For the old 1.3 version assets becoming payware, you show TANE Deluxe in your timeline. What I was told was that some were installed as built-in as part of a route 'pack' that the Deluxe version included, and were in fact not really built-in as we would think.
    If it's not broke, don't fix it.


  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by dangavel View Post
    I cannot get my head around this ( as I have zero interest in DLC so know zip about the concept, ) I cannot understand why TUMES commercial buildings included in my TANE version of timber ridge are now undable to be downloaded form the DLS and are seen by 2019 as an unknown asset . It's not so bad if one at last had any idea of what the asset actually is, but the only way I could find out was by looking at the TANE version of the route and comparing it wth the 2019 Verison , which had identical content When I started working on it . A number of users who tried it out in 2019 had no unknown assets That originated from the DLS , but now there are quite a few , some of which ( the steelworks ) you were aware of form a previous discussion. Why are some items that were available just a few months ago no longer downloadable from the DLS , how does this help people with DLC content? How can anyone building a freeware route ever be sure that users will be able to find items that were on the DLS when the route was created if this is constantly happening ?
    I run the 'unknowns' through Trainz Kuid Index Dan. Here's a perfect example <kuid2:1942:28045:3> tafweb's Yard Office 1942 from build 1.3, - now payware in TRS19 SP2. If i click on 'expand the search' in Trainz Kuid Index I can see where this asset was used before as a built-in in other versions of Trainz as well as where it might be obtained now outside of its imprisonment in the SP2 'update'.
    I would say that your TUMES assets were carelessly gathered up into the payware bag the same way when SP2 was being put together.
    Last edited by KotangaGirl; April 12th, 2021 at 10:31 AM. Reason: spelling
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by KotangaGirl View Post
    I would say that your TUMES assets were carelessly gathered up into the payware bag the same way when SP2 was being put together.
    LOL, the TUME seasonal ones hit me the worst.
    If it's not broke, don't fix it.


  6. #21
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    Honestly this just gets dumber and dumber. Why on earth does a route have to be build 4.7? I build in 4.6 so everyone with ANY version of TRS19 can use them. This forcing us to use a later build is counter-productive and frankly is offensive. Isn't this a case of (N3V) shooting themselves in the foot? I also confirm <kuid2:1942:28045:3> in SP1 shows as Built-in, not payware. I've also said before )and to N3V) that changing build numbers within the SAME game version is crazy. Some serious re-thinking needs to be done by them or loose creators and players, which equals money. Without all the hard working content creators who mostly do it for free, this game would be dead. Period. I need to do some thinking about this 4.7 b/s.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alikiwi View Post
    Honestly this just gets dumber and dumber. Why on earth does a route have to be build 4.7? I build in 4.6 so everyone with ANY version of TRS19 can use them. This forcing us to use a later build is counter-productive and frankly is offensive. Isn't this a case of (N3V) shooting themselves in the foot? I also confirm <kuid2:1942:28045:3> in SP1 shows as Built-in, not payware. I've also said before )and to N3V) that changing build numbers within the SAME game version is crazy. Some serious re-thinking needs to be done by them or loose creators and players, which equals money. Without all the hard working content creators who mostly do it for free, this game would be dead. Period. I need to do some thinking about this 4.7 b/s.....
    The 4.7 is for payware, 3.5 is min for DLS freeware
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    Post Deleted. I don't know why I let myself get triggered by these discussions. You'd think I'd know better by now.
    Last edited by KotangaGirl; April 13th, 2021 at 02:06 AM. Reason: Deleted post
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alikiwi View Post
    Why on earth does a route have to be build 4.7? I build in 4.6 so everyone with ANY version of TRS19 can use them.
    Don't know but it could very well be that build 4.7 has additional features, error checks, etc, etc that simply would not work in the TRS19 versions that create build 4.6 routes/sessions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher824 View Post
    The 4.7 is for payware, 3.5 is min for DLS freeware
    That may be the answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alikiwi View Post
    This forcing us to use a later build is counter-productive and frankly is offensive. Isn't this a case of (N3V) shooting themselves in the foot?

    I've also said before )and to N3V) that changing build numbers within the SAME game version is crazy. Some serious re-thinking needs to be done by them or loose creators and players, which equals money. Without all the hard working content creators who mostly do it for free, this game would be dead. Period. I need to do some thinking about this 4.7 b/s.....
    I have to disagree. Every time N3V releases a new version or upgrades an existing version with an SP that creates routes with a higher build the same complaints appear. While you are perfectly entitled to hold your views, I for one see the need to keep advancing the "game" (apologies to the purists) even if it means that some are left behind - myself included. I gave up attempting to create scenery assets a long time ago as it was becoming too complicated but, more importantly, I realised that my efforts would never be as good as the many talented creators who seem to manage using the new graphic technologies (or "jelly coat" as one poster calls them) without any problems. My assets would be quickly and justifiably criticised by the many users here who often post complaints about the "poor quality" assets on the DLS. I just don't have the skills or time that the talented asset creators obviously have.

    From your timeline you were not around in the earlier days when assets uploaded by many of the "content creators who mostly do it for free" were full of errors (even simple typos in the config.txt files), used inefficient construction techniques, faulty textures, etc - all of which Auran "let pass" and all ended up badly affecting game performance. While I do not wish to belittle the work of those Trainz pioneers who kept generously supplying content to the DLS, something had to be done. The solution was to set higher minimum build numbers and tougher acceptance standards to reject (with error messages) those assets that did not meet the standards that most of us demanded. Some were upset by this but I for one could see the benefits.

    The CRG people have done an amazing (and often unacknowledged) job in repairing the faults in many assets, sometimes to protests about "trampling on creators rights" - I can only assume that these critics would prefer a faulty asset that wrecks their system performance to one that works the way the creator probably intended but was unable to meet.

    Keeping the product "the same" in an ever changing gaming environment is a sure fire recipe for bankruptcy. Keeping the product "up to date" is the way to attract new customers and keep the company in business. Otherwise I would be watching the new "Star Trek Picard" TV series (with Patrick Stewart in the lead) on a new sleek looking VHS machine that made me a very nice Chai Latte while I was waiting for the tape to wind forward to the episode I wanted to see. The picture quality would not be HD and probably more like that of the original Star Trek series. Over the years I have spent a lot of money buying Bluray versions of old VHS, and later DVD, TV series and movies that I threw out because I wanted a better picture quality and more features. More money that I have paid out buying new versions of Trainz.

    My opinions, feel free to disagree.

    Peter
    Last edited by pware; April 13th, 2021 at 02:02 AM. Reason: a typo, and another.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alikiwi View Post
    On the subject of DLC route builders having to include ALL dependencies in the package (not even sure how you'd do that as dependency list doesn't show route or sessions), I did a quick look and comparison. The Canadian Rockies route is 255mb and has a mere 934 items, Golden BC is a whopping 682mb with 954 items. My Bathurst route is a mere 67mb BUT has 3,597 items! I think that will be a problem and a pain to package. But I don't see an answer (did I miss it?) as to why and how suddenly build 1.3/2 items are becoming payware when they aren't. That needs sorting.
    The file size of the route itself will depend on the size of the route itself (ie how many baseboards are used), and the complexity of the route (the amount of track/scenery/etc on the route). So a relatively small route, or a route with simpler scenery (ie outback Australia) will be much smaller than a large route with a lot of scenery (ie really dense forest).

    The size of the overall DLC pack, however, will change depending on the number of assets included in the DLC pack and their size.


    In regards to content on the Download Station that became marked as payware, this was covered in my last reply and is solved for new DLC packs. For previous DLC packs, where the updated asset has not yet been placed onto the Download Station, please contact the helpdesk with a list of assets that are from the DLS but have had an update included/marked as payware in a new DLC pack and we can organize for these assets to be uploaded to the DLS.



    Quote Originally Posted by dangavel View Post
    I cannot understand why TUMES commercial buildings included in my TANE version of timber ridge are now undable to be downloaded form the DLS and are seen by 2019 as an unknown asset.
    With recent changes to the DLS Content Repair system, content that is marked as faulty and needing an update may become shown as 'unknown' in Content Manager. It should still download if you select 'download' or 'download this version', but it will not be shown as 'available for download' until an update to repair the errors is released. This update will either need to be created by the original creator, otherwise the asset will be repaired by the Content Repair Group when they get to it.


    AFAIK, the bad news (for some) is that only routes version 4.7 and higher are being accepted which means you are going to have to have TRS19 SP2 or higher to get any of these new routes.
    This isn't specifically the case. In theory a route with any build number should be accepted through the TCCP2 system. We would definitely prefer routes in newer formats, but we understand that some creators may still build in older versions.

    However uploads can only be performed through TRS19 SP2 and higher as only these versions have the TCCP2 system integrated into them. We also generally recommend testing yourself in the latest build to ensure that it will work error free, as this is the build that the DLC pack will be created for when the DLC pack is processed through TCCP2.

    Honestly this just gets dumber and dumber. Why on earth does a route have to be build 4.7?
    As above, there's no minimum build requirement for the asset submissions. However the submissions can only be done through TRS19 SP2 or higher, as the submission system was introduced in these releases.

    However in some cases there are minimum build requirements for certain features, functions, or uses, as we do introduce changes, improvements, etc as needed. At this time, we don't have a minimum build requirement for TCCP2 submissions, so this shouldn't be an issue for the time being.

    And TBH, if this were the case, the simple fix would be to quickly resave in the required build and then upload.

    Regards
    Zec Murphy

    Customer Support Rep
    N3V Games (Auran)

    *Please do not use Private Messages for support. Support can only be provided via the helpdesk, or via the forums.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZecMurphy View Post
    ...
    This isn't specifically the case. In theory a route with any build number should be accepted through the TCCP2 system. We would definitely prefer routes in newer formats, but we understand that some creators may still build in older versions.

    However uploads can only be performed through TRS19 SP2 and higher as only these versions have the TCCP2 system integrated into them. We also generally recommend testing yourself in the latest build to ensure that it will work error free, as this is the build that the DLC pack will be created for when the DLC pack is processed through TCCP2.
    ...
    As above, there's no minimum build requirement for the asset submissions. However the submissions can only be done through TRS19 SP2 or higher, as the submission system was introduced in these releases.

    However in some cases there are minimum build requirements for certain features, functions, or uses, as we do introduce changes, improvements, etc as needed. At this time, we don't have a minimum build requirement for TCCP2 submissions, so this shouldn't be an issue for the time being.

    And TBH, if this were the case, the simple fix would be to quickly resave in the required build and then upload.

    Regards
    So I can to upload a version 3.5 route from the version 4.7 Content Manager, it compiles it into a tzarc 'pack' that is only available from the Content Store for installation. What version is the route now. Is it still 3.5 or did it convert it to 4.7? If I can only access the content from my Content Store, how do I get it into my older versions of Trainz?

    Sorry, just a little confused on this one.
    If it's not broke, don't fix it.


  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher824 View Post
    So I can to upload a version 3.5 route from the version 4.7 Content Manager, it compiles it into a tzarc 'pack' that is only available from the Content Store for installation. What version is the route now. Is it still 3.5 or did it convert it to 4.7? If I can only access the content from my Content Store, how do I get it into my older versions of Trainz?
    My reading of Zec's post is that this only applies to content uploaded using the TCCP2 system for creating DLC, not content uploaded to the DLS.
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by pware View Post
    My reading of Zec's post is that this only applies to content uploaded using the TCCP2 system for creating DLC, not content uploaded to the DLS.
    Yes, understood, that what I was referring to. DLS accepts version 3.5 and does not go through TCCP2
    Last edited by Christopher824; April 13th, 2021 at 09:52 PM. Reason: edit from DLC to DLS, sorry these acronyms are killing me... LOL
    If it's not broke, don't fix it.


  14. #29

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    DLC is only available to Trainz versions that can use the store. It is not for older versions of Trainz. If you want your route for older versions you have to use the DLS. From SP2 onwards the assets keep the version as it was sent, it does not change version numbers.
    In the beginning of DLC, some DLS assets were upgraded for the package but instead of them showing as payware they got shown as built-in in error. When you deleted the DLC package these were left behind and have found their way into other routes. Those routes now show them as not active because they are now correctly marked as payware in new downloads.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZecMurphy View Post

    With recent changes to the DLS Content Repair system, content that is marked as faulty and needing an update may become shown as 'unknown' in Content Manager. It should still download if you select 'download' or 'download this version', but it will not be shown as 'available for download' until an update to repair the errors is released. This update will either need to be created by the original creator, otherwise the asset will be repaired by the Content Repair Group when they get to it.

    Regards
    Nope that strategy doesn't work at all. wouldn't it be better to leave the items to be downloadable until they ARE repaired as they did not seem to cause any issues when used in 2019 ? . I don't think you guys seem to understand just how annoying this issue is for freeware route builders, its consuming hours and hours of wasted time. I really cant think of how you could actually make things any worse that they are , but I'm sure that's perfectly possible.

    I can appreciate that you want to get revenue from payware, but this doesn't seem to be working very well for those of us who make freeware routes, as the items we have to work with keep changing their status and screwing up what we took months to create . its like the IT tech we had who used to decide to install updates for an entire room full of computers during the day when they were supposed to be used by students, he did it because it was easier for him and he didn't really care what the downside was for others, this was due to him totally lacking in empathy and probably actually wanting to annoy us as we were getting in his way by actually using the machines

    I'm sure that's not NV3's intention but it does sometimes come over as being like that .
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