"installed Payware" problem.

G

Ghost42

Well-known member
Having uploaded a modified route/session. A check on the dependencies (after the event) results in at least 20 of these.
Googling for info refers to 'not active' mainly.
I have no payware routes installed. Is it best to wait till the upload is available then ask someone with an fct to download and check for missing dependencies, or delete them and re-download.
Dependencies of note are the ATSF C30 - 7 and ATSF GP60M.
I have hoping to solve this now this as I am not a fan of chasing dependencies.
 
TRS19 does come with payware but most would not be aware of it - I only noticed it yesterday after years of using TRS19. The background scene (it is actually a full working route) shown on the main menu selection screen, where you select Surveyor/Driver/My Collection/More Content/Learn to Drive, contains assets classified by CM as "Payware". I discovered that I was using some of these "built-in payware" assets in the "Clutter Effects Layer" in my current creation, But I decided that as every TRS19 user will/should already have them installed and that I could not see any alternatives then I will not replace them.

But that said, it is too easy for route and session creators to accidentally add in payware assets. It is just as easy for route and session creators to use CM to check their work for payware assets before uploading to the DLS. I regularly check my work and, when I find that payware has somehow found its way in, I replace it with content from the DLS or built-in.

I recently downloaded a route plus a number of sessions from the DLS and found the same problem. I contacted the creator who informed me the some of the payware assets are probably from the free DLC routes Cornish Mainline and Branches - TRS19, ECML Edinburgh - Dundee and ECML Kings Cross - Edinburgh. I have only one of those and no real interest in downloading the others. One of the "payware" assets was from a third party web site which he gave the address for but I have a policy of not using assets from third party web sites - these can be even harder for users who install your work to track down.

In those situations I normally just delete the "faulty" route and/or session and move on.

My thoughts.

 
pware said:
TRS19 does come with payware but most would not be aware of it - I only noticed it yesterday after years of using TRS19. The background scene (it is actually a full working route) shown on the main menu selection screen, where you select Surveyor/Driver/My Collection/More Content/Learn to Drive, contains assets classified by CM as "Payware". I discovered that I was using some of these "built-in payware" assets in the "Clutter Effects Layer" in my current creation, But I decided that as every TRS19 user will/should already have them installed and that I could not see any alternatives then I will not replace them.

But that said, it is too easy for route and session creators to accidentally add in payware assets. It is just as easy for route and session creators to use CM to check their work for payware assets before uploading to the DLS. I regularly check my work and, when I find that payware has somehow found its way in, I replace it with content from the DLS or built-in.

I recently downloaded a route plus a number of sessions from the DLS and found the same problem. I contacted the creator who informed me the some of the payware assets are probably from the free DLC routes Cornish Mainline and Branches - TRS19, ECML Edinburgh - Dundee and ECML Kings Cross - Edinburgh. I have only one of those and no real interest in downloading the others. One of the "payware" assets was from a third party web site which he gave the address for but I have a policy of not using assets from third party web sites - these can be even harder for users who install your work to track down.

In those situations I normally just delete the "faulty" route and/or session and move on.

My thoughts.
Click to expand...


I think it will be a good idea to replace them and remove any doubt then re-download.
In the past I created a filter but it resulted in 'missing dependencies' in a lot of routes.
Thanks for the reply.
 
BUT, some routes require Payware items. The author may encourage you to load one or more large "free/Payware routes" to get the missing assets in their creation. Thus you get hundreds of assets of dubious value to you, while filling out a free route. I always supposed the route creator just got caught with payware assets from these "major" routes and it was easier to just ask their customer get the assets from a major (BIG) payware/freeware creation.

Free, as usual, can be a trap.
 
boleyd said:
BUT, some routes require Payware items. The author may encourage you to load one or more large "free/Payware routes" to get the missing assets in their creation.
Click to expand...

For some the bandwidth overhead and ISP costs can be a hurdle to downloading large DLC items even if free. For others, myself included, the DLC routes needed have no appeal even if free - I have little in the way of free DLC and almost no TRS19 compatible paid DLC. Much of what I do have is from the TS12 era.

boleyd said:
Free, as usual, can be a trap.
Click to expand...

With Freeware you always get what you pay for (but there is a lot of really great freeware on the DLS).
 
pware said:
For some the bandwidth overhead and ISP costs can be a hurdle to downloading large DLC items even if free. For others, myself included, the DLC routes needed have no appeal even if free - I have little in the way of free DLC and almost no TRS19 compatible paid DLC. Much of what I do have is from the TS12 era.



With Freeware you always get what you pay for (but there is a lot of really great freeware on the DLS).
Click to expand...
The thing is, you can make a route and attempt to make it free of payware, but a month or two down the track, someone includes previously free assets in a payware route and then dozens of items are re labelled , I had a few TUME houses in the tane version of timber ridge, in 2019, because I haven't downloaded hundreds of megs of routes bundled with the app that I don't want to use , they are now missing assets . I've just replaced them, but this really is developing into a never ending farce ( which isn't amusing in the slightest ) that is seemingly designed to torment route builders. It's enough to try the patience of a saint , god knows how many people have just dumped the game and made off to do something better with their time , I suppose we will never know.
 
dangavel said:
The thing is, you can make a route and attempt to make it free of payware, but a month or two down the track, someone includes previously free assets in a payware route and then dozens of items are re labelled
Click to expand...

There have been some posts on this issue and I am still a "bit unclear" about it.

My understanding is that N3V wants DLC creators to "bundle" every asset in their route into the one package, including anything that is already on the DLS. I can understand why - it means that the DLC download contains everything delivered to them in the one package sent to them at the maximum possible download speed. No need to fiddle around downloading the extra DLS content at reduced speed and with download limits if they do not have an FCT. Yes, I know there are those who argue that a DLC purchase (even if it is free DLC) should come with a short term FCT that would overcome this but that will create issues further down the track (e.g. a year or more later) when the purchaser has a new computer and would need to get the package again and re-download all its DLS content again.

My understanding is, and please correct me if I am wrong, is that the original DLS content that is now in the DLC "package" would still be on the DLS. So it should still be available to other users even if confusingly reclassified as "Payware".

Does this reclassification only occur for those users who have downloaded the DLC package or is it for everyone including those who already had the DLS assets before they "became payware"?

I agree that this is very confusing and is a problem that needs to be fixed.
 
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pware said:
There have been some posts on this issue and I am still a "bit unclear" about it.

My understanding is that N3V wants DLC creators to "bundle" every asset in their route into the one package, including anything that is already on the DLS. I can understand why - it means that the DLC download contains everything delivered to them in the one package sent to them at the maximum possible download speed. No need to fiddle around downloading the extra DLS content at reduced speed and with download limits if they do not have an FCT. Yes, I know there are those who argue that a DLC purchase (even if it is free DLC) should come with a short term FCT that would overcome this but that will create issues further down the track (e.g. a year or more later) when the purchaser has a new computer and would need to get the package again and re-download all its DLS content again.

My understanding is, and please correct me if I am wrong, is that the original DLS content that is now in the DLC "package" would still be on the DLS. So it should still be available to other users even if confusingly reclassified as "Payware".

Does this reclassification only occur for those users who have downloaded the DLC package or is it for everyone including those who already had the DLS assets before they "became payware"?

I agree that this is very confusing and is a problem that needs to be fixed.
Click to expand...


yes it is very confusing, those six TUME houses are seen as "unknown asset "by TS2019 ,I initially did think that it was possible they have different kuid numbers now, there have been a few that have :3 or :2 appended at the end of the kuid and in some cases the TANE version was :3 and the 2019 version is :2. It shouldn't be possible but it has occurred, when told about them NV3 has said they will fix the issue.

in this case however these 'unknown assets "in 2019 are found in my TANE install. all installed as payware , so I guess they are all part of a DLC package
<kuid2:82412:5000530:1> <kuid2:82412:5000872:1> <kuid2:82412:6001396:2>
<kuid2:82412:5000549:2> <kuid2:82412:6095307:1> <kuid2:82412:5954110:1>
<kuid2:82412:5954011:1> <kuid2:82412:5000544:1> <kuid2:82412:5953130:1> <kuid2:82412:5000503:1> <kuid2:82412:6001555:2> <kuid2:82412:6001571:2> <kuid2:82412:5953128:1>
if I left them in the route , and new users didn't have all these installed as part of the 2019 package ,they can't download them from the DLS anymore, and if they did make an inspired guess that they needed to download some of the available routes that come with 2019 in order to find the missing items , they would have to download masses of content they might not want, there's no way of telling what route these would be from ( although in this case, I expect that the chances are its one of TUME's ... but how would new users know that ? )

this is a pretty woeful state of affairs
 
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Having just dug through and fixed a pile of Trainz 1.3 assets that TRS19 SP2 had turned into payware I'm very mindful that GOG has just released remastered versions of all the old classic Tomb Raider games at a very tempting sale price. As you say Dan it's a pretty woeful state of affairs and I'm starting to wonder why I'm bothering with TS2019/TRS19.

TRS19 seems to soak up freeware like some dirty old bath sponge, - only nobody really wants what they end up with when they wring the sponge out.
 
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Here's my two-cents worth.......

Having just gone thru the process of uploading a payware route for beta testing was almost an exercise in frustration.......easy once you work out the correct way to do things.

But....yes there is a but in all this....but a good one as far as I am concerned.

All payware routes, for that matter, any payware content created must only contain N3V built-in payware or be solely available on the DLS. It's a small PITA to weed thru a complete routes assets and remove any payware that is not N3V. It is just a matter of filtering on Payware and removing or swapping out any non-N3V authors payware items.

From what I have experienced so far......N3V is moving the right direction with the new payware upload system which protects all non-N3V payware authors from having their content spread everywhere and possibly ending up on the DLS and marked as payware which causes significant headaches for those users who don't want to be forced to download a large payware route just to get a handful of content.
 
It's not so much the third party freeware and payware that's the problem, - though that certainly can be a PITA, - it's DLS freeware being changed into payware that's the main confounded nuisance for me. I very rarely bother with the DLC that comes with TS2019 apart from a very small group of Uk routes and it's discovering that certain very useful freeware assets that I've used in route building ever since TS2009 days are now payware and that I now have to download some completely unwanted route in order to get them.
I can understand newly commissioned TRS19 assets being ring fenced as payware by N3V, but when build 1.3 and 2.0 assets suddenly become payware it's getting beyond a joke.
 
Hi All
This has been covered a few times, but to clarify.

Last year we switched over to the TCCP 2.0 system for DLC pack submissions. This changes a lot how DLC packs are now packaged, including the handling of freeware/payware content. Note that older DLC packs may not be updated to this, unless they are specifically updated through TCCP2.0.

As it stands now, it is entirely up to the creator of the DLC pack to specify exactly which content is to be marked as payware. So in a route DLC pack, this will normally be the route itself, plus often the sessions, and maybe specific content that they consider to be 'payware' content (ie if the route includes locomotives that would otherwise be released as payware if released separately). This avoids content being accidentally marked as payware, as it is now within the control of the DLC pack creator.

This means that content in a DLC pack will have two statuses when installed (at the current time at least).

installed, payware - This is for the content specified by the creator as being payware.
builtin - This is for all other content included with the DLC pack (including all dependencies on the DLS, and any non DLS assets not marked as payware by the creator).


We also have better support for non DLS dependencies. Specifically, creators can include these in their DLC pack. But they must get authorization from the original creator through the TCCP system (basically the original creator needs to sign into TCCP, and authorize either individual assets, or the whole lot). This should help avoid content being packaged in DLC packs without the original creator's permission :)

For DLS content that had updates packaged in a DLC pack prior to the TCCP2.0 system being introduced (and hence being marked 'payware', as that asset revision wasn't on the DLS), please submit a helpdesk ticket with the assetID numbers and we can look into this. This will normally involve either the same asset being placed onto the DLS, or an update to the asset being placed onto the DLS.

In regards to DLS content being included in DLC packs, this is done to ensure that anyone who purchases/installs a DLC pack has all dependencies needed for it to work installed in the one download. It is an extremely common complaint with content about having to download lots of dependencies, and so we have designed our DLC system to avoid this as much as possible (the main exception will be updated assets onto the DLS, which would be needed for any multiplayer sessions that are included).

Regards
 
Thank you Zec for your explanation and I look forward to better times. I have no problem at all with DLS assets becoming 'built-in' so long as that means older versions aren't locked out from being downloaded and used in legacy versions of Trainz. Having spent part of yesterday and today having to deal with build 1.3 and 2.0 and etc assets that were locked into being payware that should not have been ever designated as payware I tend to lose my patience very quickly. For those of us who build routes rather than just run the DLC sessions this has been a huge source of irritation.
 
On the subject of DLC route builders having to include ALL dependencies in the package (not even sure how you'd do that as dependency list doesn't show route or sessions), I did a quick look and comparison. The Canadian Rockies route is 255mb and has a mere 934 items, Golden BC is a whopping 682mb with 954 items. My Bathurst route is a mere 67mb BUT has 3,597 items! I think that will be a problem and a pain to package. But I don't see an answer (did I miss it?) as to why and how suddenly build 1.3/2 items are becoming payware when they aren't. That needs sorting.
 
ZecMurphy said:
Hi All
This has been covered a few times, but to clarify.

Last year we switched over to the TCCP 2.0 system for DLC pack submissions. This changes a lot how DLC packs are now packaged, including the handling of freeware/payware content. Note that older DLC packs may not be updated to this, unless they are specifically updated through TCCP2.0.

As it stands now, it is entirely up to the creator of the DLC pack to specify exactly which content is to be marked as payware. So in a route DLC pack, this will normally be the route itself, plus often the sessions, and maybe specific content that they consider to be 'payware' content (ie if the route includes locomotives that would otherwise be released as payware if released separately). This avoids content being accidentally marked as payware, as it is now within the control of the DLC pack creator.

This means that content in a DLC pack will have two statuses when installed (at the current time at least).

installed, payware - This is for the content specified by the creator as being payware.
builtin - This is for all other content included with the DLC pack (including all dependencies on the DLS, and any non DLS assets not marked as payware by the creator).


We also have better support for non DLS dependencies. Specifically, creators can include these in their DLC pack. But they must get authorization from the original creator through the TCCP system (basically the original creator needs to sign into TCCP, and authorize either individual assets, or the whole lot). This should help avoid content being packaged in DLC packs without the original creator's permission :)

For DLS content that had updates packaged in a DLC pack prior to the TCCP2.0 system being introduced (and hence being marked 'payware', as that asset revision wasn't on the DLS), please submit a helpdesk ticket with the assetID numbers and we can look into this. This will normally involve either the same asset being placed onto the DLS, or an update to the asset being placed onto the DLS.

In regards to DLS content being included in DLC packs, this is done to ensure that anyone who purchases/installs a DLC pack has all dependencies needed for it to work installed in the one download. It is an extremely common complaint with content about having to download lots of dependencies, and so we have designed our DLC system to avoid this as much as possible (the main exception will be updated assets onto the DLS, which would be needed for any multiplayer sessions that are included).

Regards
Click to expand...
I cannot get my head around this ( as I have zero interest in DLC so know zip about the concept, ) I cannot understand why TUMES commercial buildings included in my TANE version of timber ridge are now unable to be downloaded from the DLS and are seen by 2019 as an unknown asset . It's not so bad if one at last had any idea of what the asset actually is, but the only way I could find out was by looking at the TANE version of the route and comparing it with the 2019 version , which had identical content when I started working on it . A number of users who tried it out in 2019 had no unknown assets that originated from the DLS , but now there are quite a few , some of which ( the steelworks ) you were aware of from a previous discussion. Why are some items that were available just a few months ago no longer downloadable from the DLS , how does this help people with DLC content? How can anyone building a freeware route ever be sure that users will be able to find items that were on the DLS when the route was created if this is constantly happening ?
 
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Alikiwi said:
On the subject of DLC route builders having to include ALL dependencies in the package (not even sure how you'd do that as dependency list doesn't show route or sessions), I did a quick look and comparison. The Canadian Rockies route is 255mb and has a mere 934 items, Golden BC is a whopping 682mb with 954 items. My Bathurst route is a mere 67mb BUT has 3,597 items! I think that will be a problem and a pain to package. But I don't see an answer (did I miss it?) as to why and how suddenly build 1.3/2 items are becoming payware when they aren't. That needs sorting.
Click to expand...

The new TCCP 2.0 system takes the kuid list from the route, sessions and does the bundling of the package into a tzarc file. Once on the TCCP system, if everything it finds is built-in or DLC content, it passes, but if a built-in or a DLC asset has a dependency, or a dependency of a dependency, that is payware or 3rd party (not on DLC), it fails. It's a PITA for the route creator as you won't find this out until after you submit the route and it's run through the build machine which takes 15 to 20 minutes to compile, or if you manually check list dependencies of the routes dependencies. My last submission took around 10 attempts to weed out the problem assets x 20 minutes each shot. That does not include time to find the assets and replace them with something else.

Good news for most is that once you get a route that has run through the new build machine process, you should never see 'missing dependency' errors again.

AFAIK, the bad news (for some) is that only routes version 4.7 and higher are being accepted which means you are going to have to have TRS19 SP2 or higher to get any of these new routes.

For the old 1.3 version assets becoming payware, you show TANE Deluxe in your timeline. What I was told was that some were installed as built-in as part of a route 'pack' that the Deluxe version included, and were in fact not really built-in as we would think.
 
dangavel said:
I cannot get my head around this ( as I have zero interest in DLC so know zip about the concept, ) I cannot understand why TUMES commercial buildings included in my TANE version of timber ridge are now undable to be downloaded form the DLS and are seen by 2019 as an unknown asset . It's not so bad if one at last had any idea of what the asset actually is, but the only way I could find out was by looking at the TANE version of the route and comparing it wth the 2019 Verison , which had identical content When I started working on it . A number of users who tried it out in 2019 had no unknown assets That originated from the DLS , but now there are quite a few , some of which ( the steelworks ) you were aware of form a previous discussion. Why are some items that were available just a few months ago no longer downloadable from the DLS , how does this help people with DLC content? How can anyone building a freeware route ever be sure that users will be able to find items that were on the DLS when the route was created if this is constantly happening ?
Click to expand...

I run the 'unknowns' through Trainz Kuid Index Dan. Here's a perfect example <kuid2:1942:28045:3> tafweb's Yard Office 1942 from build 1.3, - now payware in TRS19 SP2. If i click on 'expand the search' in Trainz Kuid Index I can see where this asset was used before as a built-in in other versions of Trainz as well as where it might be obtained now outside of its imprisonment in the SP2 'update'.
I would say that your TUMES assets were carelessly gathered up into the payware bag the same way when SP2 was being put together.
 
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