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Thread: PBR Shadows, Impossible to Remove

  1. #1
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    Question PBR Shadows, Impossible to Remove

    As the title says, and I know others have had trouble with this too. It would seem that updating an older route into TRS19 can be a major headache, between non PBR textures and PBR ones which we don't want clashing near any splines. The craziness of parallax and non-parallax PBRs clashing with themselves adds to the dilemma. In the screenshot below I set the radius for applying the texture PBR Grass Mixed 24 (Dry Grass) to the maximum and moved it around this location, thereby covering several hundred metres. Note that I had already used the bulk replace tool to replace the former texture with this one. And yes, after doing that I re-introduced some other PBR textures. Note, sometimes you can get rid of a shadow by applying another texture over it, then reapply the one you want. In all cases of reapplying the same texture over one previously done via the bulk replace tool, a clear change to the colour can be seen, ie it becomes brighter and clearer.

    In this screen shoot you clearly see a shadow that appears and disappears depending on the angle of view. As stated, nothing gets rid of it.



    It would seem, given hundreds of similar examples on this route, that the previous non PBR texture lingers on and can not be totally removed. This is where a rubber tool might be useful to take it back to a bare board before applying the PBR texture. Applying to a new route obviously isn't a problem.

    Likewise, there seems to be an issue with abutments, or at least these types - Abutment DES, although I suspect it may be most types that don't use PBR textures themselves? No matter how hard I try to ensure no non PBR ground textures are anywhere near these, there's always a tiny to modest sized shadow, somewhere.



    I suspect that bringing any older route into TRS19 will be a problem IF you use PBR textures near the track. The answer may be - DON'T (use PBR near track). That may well be counter productive given one of the few benefits of TRS19 is the PBR 3D aspect, but given the enormous frustration, it may be the best option to save one's sanity! There are other routes I would like to update into TRS19, but unless there's a better solution I'd have to think carefully about if and how I'd do it before jumping off that cliff.

    Thoughts?

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    I only forgot one very important point. When dealing with updating a route as above, when I come back the next day to do more work on it, I'll find one of those shadows and decide to repaint it. Major mistake, as it will cause a shadow to develop in the next section and I'll find myself repainting textures on all I did yesterday. If I follow that, I'll be repainting 100 miles of track... forever.

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    Procedural ballast is used to enforce some border. You have to be 100% old-style or 100% procedural.

    I set my track spline circles and switches to 0.60 and spend time on all the track to insure a uniform setting accross the route.

    The track is Procedural TRS19 Jarrah.

    Some shadows require applying the Smooth Track tool.

    I think the PBR ballast offers sufficient PBR border to protect most of the track. Because the design of texture application using rectangles aligned to the grid you get some weird ballast condition that may need manual application of the PBR ballast. The TurfX tools helps with its mass application under a selected spline (i.e. track).
    Dick near Pittsburgh, Pa. i5-2500K 4.2ghz, 8gb memory, GTX1060 3gb video card. 111951

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    And all this is supposed to be an improvement?! Whenever I update one of my old routes into TS2019 I don't use PBR and TurfX, - nothing, nada. And as for jelly toffee procedural track forget it. It seems to me it's all some awful never ending curse and if you use any of it on a legacy layout/route you'll never get rid of it and it will haunt you forever.

    Perhaps it might be alright if you start off with completely clean baseboards, but from some of the posts I've been reading on the forum over the past months that's no guarantee of success either.
    Narcolepsy is not napping.



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    Quote Originally Posted by KotangaGirl View Post
    And all this is supposed to be an improvement?! Whenever I update one of my old routes into TS2019 I don't use PBR and TurfX, - nothing, nada. And as for jelly toffee procedural track forget it. It seems to me it's all some awful never ending curse and if you use any of it on a legacy layout/route you'll never get rid of it and it will haunt you forever.

    Perhaps it might be alright if you start off with completely clean baseboards, but from some of the posts I've been reading on the forum over the past months that's no guarantee of success either.
    My sentiments exactly. Jelly goo is not for me either.

    What I really don't like, however, is when a non-PBR textures has been updated (downgraded) to PBR without our knowledge. I have a route I've been working on off and on and found out yesterday that my previous textures are now PBR. I happened to have the older non-PBR textures downloaded and saved to to a CDP so I imported those and then cloned them. The name is the same, but have a - NO PBR suffix in the username followed by my initials. Simple. Now I have the originals again and I can continue working.

    I will admit though that the Turf-FX grass looks nice, but it takes some getting used to because it can mean too much of a good thing. I apply that the way I would use splines, meaning I use just enough to look like there's more but not so much to cover up a whole slope.
    John
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    There is a config tag called 'does-cast-shadows' which can be set to 0 to disable shadows. I know it would only be a solution local to your installation of Trainz, but maybe check if that can be added to the track's mesh-table and see if it works? If so, perhaps the track creator could be persuaded to issue a non-shadow version.

    http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/i...s-cast-shadows
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    Lightbulb Roystrainz paracetamol variant

    PBR is a challenge for most if not all trainzers including N3V.
    Here is what I did ever since PBR saw the shades of light.

    Under and close to specifically road and track splines you cannot use any scale other than 'zero' if you want to avoid clashes of textures with different or same scale and rotated and blended.

    This is my virtual paracetamol or aspirine against PBR head aches in TRS19.
    Disclaimer: it is not a cure against jellyfish syndrome which is the real pain in the trainz butt. If you set scale to zero you lose the 3D effect which made PBR so poisonous attractive sort off.
    The makers of the famous Canadian Rocky Mountains routes
    Master my all new TRS19 Canadian Rocky Mountains routes

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    What has unfortunately happened to Trainz is that it has gone from being a simulator that someone could buy and immediately have fun with without having any problems to speak of to becoming a simulator that requires high levels of technical skill to use, problem solve and keep running. I started out with a second hand copy of TS2004 well over a decade ago and despite never having used a railway simulator before I was up and running with it fairly quickly. I even tried my hand at a little route building and was encouraged by the results. I'm certain that if TRS19 SP2 had been my introduction to Trainz I would have given up on the first day and never considered anything to do with railway simulators ever again.
    Narcolepsy is not napping.



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    Hi All
    Unfortunately one of the limitations of PBR is that the height change is a texture effect, not a mesh change. This does have the potential for shadows to not align with the terrain, as the texture has changed the visual height of the texture. That said, generally mixing a PBR ground texture with a PBR spline/track will help work better, depending on how they've been made.

    We do understand that content creation (and route building) has become more complex. But in all honesty, this is something that has to happen for Trainz to actually remain a valid player in the games industry (including the train simulation industry). We have tried to keep this as easy as we can, but finding that balance can be difficult, and in some cases there may be no choice but to enforce newer methods (or make it a choice of one or the other).

    That said, you can always turn off the Parallax effects by turning the 'shader detail' setting down to standard (note, some other shader effects might be reduced but I can't specifically remember which sorry). But it needs to be remembered that if a user turns this setting up, it may not look as good if you don't design the route for it.

    In regards to creators updating their content, internally we are trying to avoid this for ground textures at the current time, but there may come a time where this changes. I can't guarantee it in every case, as sometimes it might be necessary to actually complete a task.

    But for 3rd party creators, this is up to them. I know I've worked with at least one creator (in my own time) to upgrade their textures, and since this was done in conjunction releasing a new set of textures was pretty much out of scope, and instead it was preferred to upgrade them. I'm sure there's also other creators looking at doing the same thing.

    Regards
    Zec Murphy

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZecMurphy View Post
    Hi All


    But for 3rd party creators, this is up to them. I know I've worked with at least one creator (in my own time) to upgrade their textures, and since this was done in conjunction releasing a new set of textures was pretty much out of scope, and instead it was preferred to upgrade them. I'm sure there's also other creators looking at doing the same thing.

    Regards
    I'm working on my ground textures, however I'm cloning then updating, so the previous versions can still be used if prefered. If and when they get released it will be a simple name replacement for anyone wanting to upgrade. By careful manipulation of alphas and parameters.tga / png it appears that you can pretty much get the lowest setting nearly flat so it doesn't obliterate things like roads and non pbr track, still experimenting at present!

    Example: PBR track in centre, non pbr either side, as said experimental at present, this is with scale on minimum. Point being maybe a bit of thought needed when converting to PBR?


    Malc


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    First, sorry to be slow answering, but due to work (shovelling for 7 hours etc), I'm a little exhausted. Some very interesting thoughts and I'll give those suggestions a try. In the particular route giving me this headache, I'm limited with choice of track - 3ft 6in gauge and have stayed with what is currently on it, NG42 60lb brown treated milled 14p 30. Oddly the old siding track hasn't been updated, and I admit that looks odd. Another really strange thing I've noticed, if you paint with the selected PBR, then find a shadow (and having changed textures), if you select to 'get' texture from the map (rather than from the list) and re-paint, it all breaks up again and you have to repaint a huge area...

    clam1952, that PBR track looks a lot better, and it may well be that the main problem is the track I'm using (build 4.6 & 2.9) probably isn't using PBR at all. Perhaps if that is true, a non PBR texture under and near it is needed, thereby largely defeating the point of having PBR! I have also replaced the texture I was using with <kuid2:661281:85202:3> PBR Grass with dirt 1 - Seasonal, and although I'm still seeing these issues, I believe (I hope), not as badly?

    I think the answer really is, if updating an older route do NOT use PBR near track. Roads don't seem to be as big an issue, probably as they are lower in height and wider. Live and learn I guess.

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    It maybe that particular ballast texture. As noted, some are better than others. I've had good luck with Samplaire textures and in particular his ballast textures, PBR included. When the size is set really small, they blend pretty well. You still need to be careful of the non-PBR textures mixing improperly and floating on top of the jellyfish guts though.

    Shoveling? That's been our gig here where I live. We've received 2 meters of snow already over the past week with daily bouts of shoveling in the morning. It's getting a bit on the old side now and we still have another month or two for this to end!
    John
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    Yes, I've seen the snow via pictures as we have friends and relatives in Oregon. Too much of it I'd say.

    Back to what Zec said, turning the Shader from Ultra to standard appears to have fixed the problem, now I just need to sort out suitable road/rail crossings :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alikiwi View Post
    Yes, I've seen the snow via pictures as we have friends and relatives in Oregon. Too much of it I'd say.

    Back to what Zec said, turning the Shader from Ultra to standard appears to have fixed the problem, now I just need to sort out suitable road/rail crossings :-)
    Yup got more white stuff coming on Thursday. 10 - 18 cm more. I'm on the opposite coast, but in the northeast...

    Anyway. I've done that myself with my settings in the past, but found that some textures looked weird as if they froze in place and not quite what I expected. I ended up finding suitable replacements that had life to them.
    John
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCitron View Post
    Shoveling? That's been our gig here where I live. We've received 2 meters of snow already over the past week with daily bouts of shoveling in the morning. It's getting a bit on the old side now and we still have another month or two for this to end!
    Quote Originally Posted by JCitron View Post
    Yup got more white stuff coming on Thursday. 10 - 18 cm more. I'm on the opposite coast, but in the northeast...
    Sounds like you need a snow blower, then when you're clearing snow, you can pretend you're a rotary snowplow on Donner Pass, trying to keep the line over the pass open during a snowstorm.
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