An open letter to N3V engineers

You may not be aware that the issue here is a very old and almost universal issue in the history of human doings. Its "tradition vs progress".


Personally I've gradually moved from a youthful enthusiasm for "Progress" to a more mature realisation that traditions are extremely valuable despite being imperfect. Why is this? Because changing things in an effort to effect "progress" often provides one nice new thing at the expense of ten nasty unintended consequences. As often as not, the unintended consequences include the breaking of long and effective traditional modes of achieving things, tested & refined through time; ingrained as good and well-understood habits of behaviour throughout a large population.


The new is not always the improved. Isn't this lesson more obvious by the day? We built a fine civilisation, in terms of comfort and joy for the masses of producer-consumer culture. Progress! But have you noticed the final bill now arriving? Soon we may all be dead of weather or pandemic; or several other unintended consequences of "Progress" waiting in the wings!


As with the wider world, so with the little corners, such as Trainz. Every new release contains reams of unintended consequences requiring SP1, 2, 3, .....N. Eventually the artifice becomes so inchoate that it can no longer be controlled sufficiently to avoid dozens of unintended consequences (bugs) rising up spontaneously from a no longer well understood complex network. Then N3V invent another new! improved! version and we go through the rounds of frustrations & fixings once more.


Sometimes the bugs are as big and nasty as a Tyrannosaurus. This thread seems to have identified one such rampaging about.

Lataxe, channelling Edmund Burke.

pware said:

I can understand why this has annoyed you. You have obviously put a great deal of effort into your project and have been let down by multiple poorly written and modified scripts from third party creators. I would also be annoyed (and in fact have experienced that annoyance myself when a bug from N3V destroyed all my work in creating a session in one of the early trouble plagued TANE releases) but in your case complaining that N3V has a duty to either fix the problem or allow their software to run poorly written scripts (or other issues) is not fair or reasonable.

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I have not complained that N3V has any "duty" to do. I kindly asked if they can help in a comprehensive way not to leave me alone with the issue - with no answers.

"Because something basically works fine" is nothing strange, it's pure practice - in almost any case of human life, from surgery, to computers. Normally all people consider if changing something is worth it at all. I have not seen any advances that were brought with this "repair" N3V did. At the same time it crashed a few hundred locomotives presumably used by several thousand users - not just ta bunch of people somewhere in the eastern Europe, but a significant part of the community. From a pragmatic point of view a question should be asked - if it was really a good move? How much advance did it bring and how many losses? I believe that the loses are severly bigger then the advances in this particular case.

We're already working on that issue, but it will take an enormous amount of time. And I would surely prefer to spend that time on creating some new content for all of you.

Dear content developers, please answer one question:



Haven't you received a similar message before?

I do not protect anyone, but the auran always warned! And I remember from the days of TRS 2004 that in every new release of the game, early warnings became a mistake - you probably forgot about that.
I know how hard it is to start redoing something, but then you understand - the eyes are scary, but the hands are doing it.
Therefore, I think that we need to stop whining and slowly correct. The creation of some kind of universal corrector will take more time and most likely no one will.

kilanziom said:

"
No my friend, you misunderstood. These are not 10-year-old assets - the script was created 10 years ago and throughout those 10 years everything was ok, nobody ever pointed out that there might be a flaw inside that in great theory can cause trouble in the future. The last locomotive based on that script was uploaded to DLS about 2 weeks ago and was working perfect before the last updates in TS19. So it's not some prehistoric content, it's fully up-to-date content - and yes, I can expect it to work in new versions because I made a lot of improvements in the models themselves to be up-to-date - including fixing config files and some solutions unwanted in the more recent versions of Trainz. There's a few hundred of these locomotives but they were upgraded throughout those years and most of them are up-to-date.

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A ten-year-old toaster may still work, but don't complain if it suddenly stops working. Windows 2000 may still work on modern computers, but don't complain to Microsoft if it suddenly (after a major update) doesn't work anymore.

Does my point make sense?

Following your idea:

What percentage of modern computer users try to start w2000?
What percentage of TRS19 users try a recently added to dl loco?

Does a manufacturer of a toaster change the way it works half way?

But first of all an average toaster manufacturer isn’t so emotional connected to his work as we are. Additionaly - imagine a community of a 2000 toster users. Imagine a community of trainz users.

samplaire said:

What percentage of modern computer users try to start w2000?

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You would be surprised to see how many computers are still running Windows 2000 and even Windows 98. The train destination monitors at all railway stations here in Sydney are still running Windows 2000. Microsoft ended support for Windows 2000 in July 2010.

Does a manufacturer of a toaster change the way it works half way?

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Apple iOS recently stopped running 32bit apps. All Apple Phone apps now have to be 64bit. Pity about all those iPhone users who have 32bit apps and have upgraded their iOS version.

The point is that because something basically worked well in the past despite obvious errors, poor design, bugs, use of obsolete technology, etc, does not mean that it should always be supported in the future. Apple have made the break with older 32bit technology despite the fact that those 32bit apps probably worked perfectly well. You could argue that dropping 32bit support has caused more problems for many iPhone users than it has brought benefits. Others would argue that maintaining support for something that was working perfectly well but was flawed or obsolete, will create more problems in the longer term.

My thoughts.

Few comparisons that go wrong here
-If you really know software, the current Windows 10 is still W2000 but with a newer slick shell on top
notepad was in windows1.0 on floppies and still in windows 10 now and keeps working always.
-Trainz is a base platform to run/use stuff the content creators made, if older things no longer work,
content creators will get mad and leave and the game dies.
-As user of a toaster you did not invest years and years making the sandwich,
trainz content creators do and are proud of and attached to the content they made


Samplaire there is good news


Installed the final SP2 here 110394
Once again tested DB 233 127-0 <kuid2:173943:100345:6> from kilanziom on DLS (the loc in your signature)
with the Polish script, and it works just fine here, no script changes needed at all.


So please..routebuilders do not mess with beta versions in your main install (where you build routes)
in theory Polish locs should work in the final SP2 (if they use a similar script i tested)


respect to all content creators from me, dont give up !
and have a good x-mas week
greetings GM

@GM - thank you for your kind words. The final 110491 returns the same error. For those who are interested in solving the problem not only in spreading great theories: we (I mean Polish creators in overall) created the script to cover the gap in the system on/off hammer simple type of light management to fulfill Polish compicated lamp signaling (yes, loco lamps show the status of the locomotive - it is shunting, going, being special train and so on) which wasn't otherwise possible to achieve in original 0/1 on/off system. Besides, our, east-european lamps are/were not that bright so developers of locos decided to make a workaround to make it more realistic with 'darken' lamps. Yet, that in any state of the script, there was literally NO symptom of error (Oleg, there was no warning in the past!) every creator/reskiner made his loco based on this script or with custom changes. So now almost every Polish or German, Czech, Slovak loco (USSR in fact!) made by our developer is infected with the error. There are hundrets of locos if not thousands. Comparing the problem to win2000 (YES many renowed audio equipment manufacturers still are based on w2000!!! and I know it as a sound engineer!!!) is unfair! Especially because we are community and as I said many times (sorry, I am 50 years old, please give me a bit of rights to have a life wisdom!) this is not comparable to anything, we are unique!!!. Of course N3V is our god in this life to set the rulesbut still, we are community and we can't be compared to anything! For good and bad. The cold 'progress is the only way' isn't the answer in this conflict.


Following the rule of 100% compatible config a simple cube asset is better than a complex locomotive because it meets all rules? Logically yes but for human brain's sake it's nonsense!






HOUGH.


Trainz is a platform comparable to nothing else and I will probably use/buy it in many future releases. But the policy of leaving behind good things because they don't meet some requirements is a smack in my (or other free AND quality developer's) chick.

pware said:

You would be surprised to see how many computers are still running Windows 2000 and even Windows 98. The train destination monitors at all railway stations here in Sydney are still running Windows 2000. Microsoft ended support for Windows 2000 in July 2010.

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But those systems work on adequate machines, not new machines, I guess, so this is not comparable.

G.M. said:

notepad was in windows1.0 on floppies and still in windows 10 now and keeps working always.

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If we are going to get into specifics (and keep going around in circles) while Microsoft Notepad was in Windows 3.0 (I don't know about Windows 1.0) the version in Windows 10 is not the same - it has been updated including in the latest Windows 10 update - see https://www.windowscentral.com/whats-new-notepad-windows-10-october-2018-update

The original version of Trainz also came on floppy disks but is not the same version as Trainz TRS19. Its features have been updated and many of its content rules tightened and new content rules added which have made older content obsolete and no longer supported. That is not the same as Notepad being able to load the same text files today as it did in Windows 3.0.

This way we soon land in MS DOS and assembler. Please don’t go THAT off topic

Samplaire, out of curiosity have you tried restoring a backup from the backups folder seeing if something has happened to the route whilst working on it to cause that crash?

If you haven't done this, export a CDP to keep your current version in case the backups also don't work and it's something completely unrelated.

Not too long ago I had an issue a bugged interlocking tower which corrupted a route, but it would only corrupt when messing with said interlocking tower and saving. Maybe you have a broken IT tor other asset that's also causing issue(s)?

Your crashing issue sounds like what I had, hopefully it is and we save that route. Thread here: https://forums.auran.com/trainz/sho...-causes-route-to-become-corrupted-upon-saving

samplaire said:

What percentage of TRS19 users try a recently added to dl loco?

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With all respect, these "new" assets use out-of-date, 10 year old scripts. I think this is the problem...

The Elephant being ignored here

There is an "Elephant in the room" here that everyone seems to have ignored so far.

Putting aside all the technical issues, there may be some legal, i.e. copyright, issues here. Specifically:-

Those loco asset creators who copied and/or modified the script and uploaded their new locos, with the script, did they have permission from the original script creator to "copy, modify and upload"? (That permission may have been explicitly stated in the script itself or in the config.txt file of the original asset that it first appeared in)

If the answer to that question is NO then all the copied and modified scripts that have been added to the hundreds??? of locos on the DLS are copyright violations. Simply fixing the faulty script code and uploading it and all the affected assets to the DLS will also be a copyright violation. Likewise have the creators of all those loco assets given their permission for their work to be modified by replacing the script? According the the terms of use for uploading assets to the DLS, assets that are copyright violations must be removed from the DLS.

I hate to throw this "spanner into the works" but unless you can identify the original creator(s) of that script and obtain their permission to modify, copy and upload it, then no repair by anyone, including N3V, can take place.

Can anyone identify the creator(s) of the original script? Has any attempt been made to contact them? No response from the copyright holder(s) or the inability to contact them does not mean permission has been granted.

The original script was made by one creator who gave it to another creator to modify it to particular needs. So the script was made and manipulated by 2 people. This is a cooperation but stretched over for a long period of time. There are 7 incarnations of the script and most probably no more. Then reskinners appeared to spread the script over hundreds of locomotives. So all locomotives that appeared in the net are aproved to be published by the original authors. All rights are watched.

Pware, you seem to be a good detective. Perhaps you can help us solve the problem rather than telling us advises what we should have done to avoid it?

There are 2 types of the problem. One is solvable 100 percent. When a loco is using only custom lamps (no a.light) then removing the 3 lines Mika showed solves the problem. But when a loco is using both custom and built-in lamps then removing the 3 lines solves the problem of blocking the game but introduces a problem of double lights at a time.

dundun92 said:

With all respect, these "new" assets use out-of-date, 10 year old scripts. I think this is the problem...

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We can’t compare the situations. We are nit 0/1, many other factors are in play.

exton32 said:

Samplaire, out of curiosity have you tried restoring a backup from the backups folder seeing if something has happened to the route whilst working....

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thank you for your help! If you refer to the original problem then I’ve tried (successfuly) to reproduce it on a fresh install of the game with only one problematic loco installed...

Samplarie, I may have not expressed it publicly, but deep inside, I do feel for you.

My point is this - N3V wont save the day. I feel like sitting back and depending on N3V to fix our problems is like depending on the government to fix our problems. We all need to work for ourselves.

Life pushes ahead, and it's up to you to keep yourself and your stuff up-to-date and working as technology progresses. If you neglect to update your assets and scripts, you will be left behind, hoping someone else will save you (which never happens)...

Since you are using scrips made in unsupported trainz versions, can we really expect them to keep working forever, without ever updating them? We can, however, expect them to work in the version they were created in, which would be my suggestion to you.

samplaire said:

Pware, you seem to be a good detective. Perhaps you can help us solve the problem rather than telling us advises what we should have done to avoid it?

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I am flattered by your confidence in my "crime solving" abilities but scripting is one of many areas of asset creation that I have never ventured into. I am more familiar with reskinning, creating routes, sessions, HTML assets and non-environmental textures.

I don't believe that I was attempting to tell anyone how they could have avoided the problem (what would be the point of that?) but was attempting to point out the problems with some the various proposed solutions.

I agree with dundun92's above post. N3V would be unwise to start modifying assets on the DLS that they did not create for a long list of reasons. Even getting them to remove assets that are copyright violations requires, justifiably, a high level of proof.

The CRG works under a very strict set of rules as to what they can and cannot do and editing 3rd party scripts without the full permission of the creator(s) is probably not within their legitimate role.

The best solution in these cases has to come from the community that created the assets.

There are valuable lessons in this for us all.

Thank you.


Thanks to Laurinlaki's knowledge and his falcon eye (pointing where is the core of the problem, suggestion of solving and another suggestion of a workaround for a side problem) and with a help from Tony (a script with that solution applied) I've managed to repair the scripts and make changes to config files when necessary. Kilanziom as the creator of most of the affected locos will spread the solution through his arsenal of locomotives which are on DLS and traionzart.pl. There is also one loco, a reskin on my site which has been already reapaired. A lot of work is ahead of us so keep yoyr fingers crossed, please.