AI and the useless "Drive" command issue ..Tony are you listening ???

Hi Railhead001
The 'drive' command is designed for the train to maintain the speed limits up till such a time as it reaches a 'block' in the track. If that block does not clear after a short period, the command is cancelled.

As the driver has no specific commands, it will simply keep driving until it reaches a block in the track. It doesn't have a destination, so it won't actually plot a path. It simply follows the track till it reaches a red signal, another train (if no signals are present), or junction that is set against it (Again if no signals are present), or a buffer stop (which the AI driver sees as a red signal).

If you want your train to set junctions, then you will need to use one of the more advanced driver commands to tell it what to do or where to go.

It must be remembered that the AI will only do what you tell it to. If you give it the drive command then you are telling it nothing more than "drive at the speed limit until you reach something that blocks your path; then alert the player of this and stop and cancel the drive command after X amount of time".

Regards

ZecMurphy said:

Hi Railhead001
The 'drive' command is designed for the train to maintain the speed limits up till such a time as it reaches a 'block' in the track. If that block does not clear after a short period, the command is cancelled.

As the driver has no specific commands, it will simply keep driving until it reaches a block in the track. It doesn't have a destination, so it won't actually plot a path. It simply follows the track till it reaches a red signal, another train (if no signals are present), or junction that is set against it (Again if no signals are present), or a buffer stop (which the AI driver sees as a red signal).

If you want your train to set junctions, then you will need to use one of the more advanced driver commands to tell it what to do or where to go.

It must be remembered that the AI will only do what you tell it to. If you give it the drive command then you are telling it nothing more than "drive at the speed limit until you reach something that blocks your path; then alert the player of this and stop and cancel the drive command after X amount of time".

Regards

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Again let me repeat, I only want the train to drive, not anything else, I stated previously the signals work fine..they change on their own without programming commands..here again is the scenario:

Train #1 I choose the "drive" command, it moves and stops at signals that are red, they change to green and the train proceeds to the next block and does so without any issues

Train #2 is directly behind Train #1, I choose "drive command" again it follows train#1

Train 1 is 42 cars long

Train 2 ia only 22 cars long


Both trains leave Parker and make it to Richmond with no problems, both stop at signals without being programmed and proceed when the signals go green

Train 1 exits Richmond yard via the loop and reenters the yard on a different track so as not to collide with train 2. This track has a speed reduction slowing train 1 with the 42 cars

Because train 1 is now slower so is train 2 behind it.

Train 1 stops at a red signal , waits for it to turn green, it does so it proceeds forward on it own without any additional commands, but since it is a long train it takes more time to start up and to clear the next block

Meantime train 2 is stopped a red signal behind train 1 and when it does turn green train 2 does not move because 2 minutes or so have passed and the signal did not turn green during that time so it quits

So as you can see if the delay was longer then 2 minutes it would proceed on following the slower train 1

This so basic I can't believe how hard it is for people to understand that the trains are just moving from point A to point B then going back (in a loop), no commands needed since "drive" was made for that purpose or are you trying to infer "drive" can only work without any signals on the route because it does work unless the train has to wait past a certian time frame...

Maybe a video showing the signals changing allowing trains to continue on is needed since obviously me explaining the same thing over and over is getting nowhere.

Yes i understand "drive" is just for that purpose and that's all I want, I never mentioned the train needing to do anything else.

Again not rocket science to come to the conclusion the time delay in the "drive" command is the issue as others have also mentioned and not the signals or anything else.

Also your comment "drive at the speed limit until you reach something that blocks your path" is totally incorrect, the junction will change by itself if it is not aligned correctly with the path of the train, at least when a signal is nearby, I would be glad to show a video demostrating so.

Furthermore this is a known bug that has been reported many versions ago but I guess Tony and company want everyone to make a schedule and not just use a single click as it was intended for ....to just drive...or just make sure you only use 1 train for that command ,,,

Why is it so hard for people to comprehend some want to just watch the trains and not operate them, I spent a lot of effort updating Coal Country to such a highly detailed route, that it now has over 2x the original assests in it and I woud love to railfan with some trains traversing the length of the route and then back again using the block signal system that actually works on its own, but the developer can't seem to figure out how to extend the "time out" feature in the drive command to either extend it or make it editable somehow....but happy times for the new eye candy in the latest version, those textures are amazing...

Stay tuned...video coming in a few hours, allowing it to be processed so it can be viewed in 2560x1440

What will you see ?

Train #1 using the "Drive" command start going forward

Train #2 behind train 1 also has the "Drive" commad chosen but since train #1 is in front of it, the junction automatically swithes to a clear path for train #2 to use

Train #2 continues on until it comes to 2 red signals that are back to back. The train slows down and stops at each red signal before the signal. automatically changes to green allowing train #2 to proceed onto the next block with only using the "Drive" command.

So you will see how this command actually functions correctly as long as the stop the train makes is under a certian amount of time.

I will post another video showing how train #2 gets "Stuck" at a signal waiting for it to change green while train #1 proceeds forward (slowly)....I'd do it now but its like 1 am, lol.

Some lads enjoy the Trainz with all its real-world facilities, which are often complex to the point where chaotic propensities must be managed to avoid crashes, seize-ups and general dysfunction. These lads enoy Trainz despite these real world facilities not including a mode in which trains go along with no encouragement other than winding them up and setting them off. (That, after all, is the sort of model railway usually rendered in a basic fashion for 4 year olds, who have yet to learn the many ins & outs of awkward reality). .....

Other lads have "chewing a wasp" as their hobby. It makes them very sore but they are a bit peculiar and can't help themselves.

Lataxe

Railhead001 said:

So you will see how this command actually functions correctly as long as the stop the train makes is under a certian amount of time.

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+
That is exactly how Zec explained the workings of the command. eg. the train follows the command to drive and when it hits a block which doesn't clear in time it drops the command. So the command works properly, just not how you expected it to work initially. As I said earlier, treat AI as an artificial idiot, hold its hand, spoon feed it information and you can't go wrong. AI trains will set junctions to take what it considers to be the shortest path.
If you were to ask the right question rather than going off like a bag of prawns in the sun, you may find answers that are more to the point and less pointed.

Graeme

grazlash said:

+
That is exactly how Zec explained the workings of the command. eg. the train follows the command to drive and when it hits a block which doesn't clear in time it drops the command. So the command works properly, just not how you expected it to work initially. As I said earlier, treat AI as an artificial idiot, hold its hand, spoon feed it information and you can't go wrong. AI trains will set junctions to take what it considers to be the shortest path.
If you were to ask the right question rather than going off like a bag of prawns in the sun, you may find answers that are more to the point and less pointed.

Graeme

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And as I stated it is a delay issue in the command, no question to ask other than just if it can be fixed, pretty straight forward if you looked at what I said to begin with, asked the right question ???, wow, absolutely brilliant,,,,,actually maybe if you bothered to read my opening line: "What is the point of having the "drive" command if the AI train can only wait for a minute or two before having to select the same command for that loco ? " , maybe you just need to actually read what was brought up instead of jumping to conclusions......great analogy by the way................






Train #1 using the "Drive" command starts going forward

Train #2 behind train 1 also has the "Drive" commad chosen but since train #1 is in front of it, the junction automatically swithes to a clear path for train #2 to use

Train #2 continues on until it comes to 2 red signals that are back to back. The train slows down and stops at each red signal before the signal. automatically changes to green allowing train #2 to proceed onto the next block with only using the "Drive" command.

So you will see how this command actually functions correctly as long as the stop the train makes is under a certian amount of time.

IMO...

Drive command is built in, would require being updated in a new release (sp/build) to work differently. It does work as designed, so I would not classify it as a bug.

Three ways it could be changed to operate differently

1) Change the timeout to a larger default value
2) Let the user set the timeout value in a settings page with possibly a check box to disable the timeout
3) Remove the timeout and only alert user train is waiting. This way could also alert user that the line has cleared and train is now continuing

I personally would pick option 2, it would give the user the most control over the command

Would repeat keep it showing after a timeout?

stagecoach said:

Would repeat keep it showing after a timeout?

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That would work if the "Drive" was a driver command in the driver command bar but the OP is referring to the "Drive" option selected from a locos popup menu (right mouse click). This "Drive" option is a "one-off" command intended, IMHO, to provide a quick "test drive" facility and not the full blown "AI experience" that the OP wants. Frankly, there are far more important issues that need "fixing" than this and it is not worth the "hissy fit" that has been shown in this thread.

Christopher824 said:

IMO...

Drive command is built in, would require being updated in a new release (sp/build) to work differently. It does work as designed, so I would not classify it as a bug.

Three ways it could be changed to operate differently

1) Change the timeout to a larger default value
2) Let the user set the timeout value in a settings page with possibly a check box to disable the timeout
3) Remove the timeout and only alert user train is waiting. This way could also alert user that the line has cleared and train is now continuing

I personally would pick option 2, it would give the user the most control over the command

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This is the sort of constructive feed back people listen to. All of these options seem very good and give the user the ability to customize the options easily without the need to program full on driver commands for each individual train. Perfect for freight operations where frequent stops aren't required like passenger trains. This comment is clear and to the point without a distracting rant to take away from the main point of the post. Chris lists a clear "issue" or in this case, a clear feedback and a clear solution(s) to help improve the user experience. I hope the N3V team will consider your comment Chris and look into developing this simple drive command in the future.

bentrain14 said:

This is the sort of constructive feed back people listen to. All of these options seem very good and give the user the ability to customize the options easily without the need to program full on driver commands for each individual train. Perfect for freight operations where frequent stops aren't required like passenger trains. This comment is clear and to the point without a distracting rant to take away from the main point of the post. Chris lists a clear "issue" or in this case, a clear feedback and a clear solution(s) to help improve the user experience. I hope the N3V team will consider your comment Chris and look into developing this simple drive command in the future.

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Which was already stated at the beginning of the posts and for clarification look up the definition of "rant" before judging people, I clearly explained the issue at length and everybody gave their opinion on the purpose of the "drive" command without anything to substanitate what they said. I asked for documentation for that command and as usual people chime in their 2 cents without any proof to support what they say which is a rant as well. At least I documented my points and also stated previously "x " amount of time for a delay extension or editable config file before anyone else. People here don't even realize that the "drive" command allows for junctions to change by itself .

To bad the developer can't take lead and show where the reference information is for the "drive" command, but here is another rant for all the challenged out there, it is a bug that was submitted back in TMR17 so sorry folks who believe otherwise, I documented it way back then and sent a video to Tony demostrating the issue and was told his development team would look into it and that he did not realize this was happening so if it wasn't realized then, it wasn't planned to act that way to begin with. I understand at that time it miight not have been a high priority considering TANE was the focus at the time but it was an issue and the delay timing out (quickly) was not a "planned" feature of that command. But everyone wants to skip over that part and state opinions that are baseless. Enjoy the koolaid, I can tell alot of people chug it regularily.

What is with you and koolaid man?

bentrain14 said:

What is with you and koolaid man?

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You no likey the koolaid ?

I thought everyone liked koolaid....................

Oh, and by the way, I want to thank all the lovely folks complaining that all i do is rant rant rant. You have given me a great idea that will be coming along shortly !!! Really can't thank those folks enough

Railhead001 said:

You no likey the koolaid ?

I thought everyone liked koolaid....................

Oh, and by the way, I want to thank all the lovely folks complaining that all i do is rant rant rant. You have given me a great idea that will be coming along shortly !!! Really can't thank those folks enough

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Koolaid, never heard of it as it's not Australian.
Look forward to whatever you have "coming along shortly" as long as there is no defamation involved

The thing I like about the "Drive" command is that the train stops when there's a problem. It doesn't run through turnouts that are set wrong and it doesn't run off the end of the track. You can defeat these protections using Surveyor to give a section of track a high speed limit ... then the train might not have enough time to stop when "Drive" detects a problem.

Drive isn't meant to be used to keep a train running without supervision. But it is handy to get one moving.

OddRails said:

The thing I like about the "Drive" command is that the train stops when there's a problem. It doesn't run through turnouts that are set wrong and it doesn't run off the end of the track. You can defeat these protections using Surveyor to give a section of track a high speed limit ... then the train might not have enough time to stop when "Drive" detects a problem.

Drive isn't meant to be used to keep a train running without supervision. But it is handy to get one moving.

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"Drive isn't meant to be used to keep a train running without supervision." Where does it state that for the command ?

grazlash said:

Koolaid, never heard of it as it's not Australian.
..

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It's an urban slang term they are referring to, not the drink mix;

"Drinking the Kool-Aid" is an expression used to refer to a person who believes in a possibly doomed or dangerous idea because of perceived potential high rewards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_the_Kool-Aid

Christopher824 said:

It's an urban slang term they are referring to, not the drink mix;

"Drinking the Kool-Aid" is an expression used to refer to a person who believes in a possibly doomed or dangerous idea because of perceived potential high rewards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_the_Kool-Aid

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Actually that is incorrect, don't believe everything the Wiki states, the phrase originated from the Guyana Tragedy ............ironically though it wasn't really koolaid yet that's what got attached to it..

Railhead001 said:

Actually that is incorrect, don't believe everything the Wiki states, the phrase originated from the Guyana Tragedy ............ironically though it wasn't really koolaid yet that's what got attached to it..

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Actually is correct. Read the whole Wiki article, describes the whole Guyana thing and how the term was derived from.

(Man I'm glad I got out of this crazy game)