Trainz on ARM64

SRKing783

''Trainz Veteran''
Hi all,

Since it seems like more and more companies are switching to ARM chips (most notably Apple and Microsoft), I had been wondering - would it be possible for Trainz to natively run on ARM chips? All I mean is, would it be able to run on the Surface Pro X natively, and the upcoming ARM Macs via not Rosetta 2? I would think so, and if so, then T:ANE, TS19, and possibly TS12 (as many people still use that version) would need to be updated.

I'm not saying "These better be updated to work with ARM-based machines alongside Intel and AMD machines!!!", rather I'm asking, "Would this be possible?" If not - or at least, for the moment - then that's understandable.
 
Surely its not the chip but the OS running on the chip (and of cause sufficient associated graphic support). Peter
 
Until ARM processors become as powerful as an intel Core or AMD Ryzen, I dont think so, not a desktop version anyway. Where the ARM/nVidia marriage will get the most traction will be in the Android world of tablets, TVs and "connected home" devices like ACs, heaters, fridges, lighting, ovens, security, etc. Embedded Windows is the most likely Microsoft product to benefit from a "graphics on processor" solution.
 
Until ARM processors become as powerful as an intel Core or AMD Ryzen, I dont think so, not a desktop version anyway. Where the ARM/nVidia marriage will get the most traction will be in the Android world of tablets, TVs and "connected home" devices like ACs, heaters, fridges, lighting, ovens, security, etc. Embedded Windows is the most likely Microsoft product to benefit from a "graphics on processor" solution.

There is desktop and server class ARM processors already. There is even super computers using ARM. Apple’s A series CPUs already beat some Intel laptops. Apple is planning to replace all of their computers with ARM, which means they have to come out with very powerful ARM CPUs, as the pros need power.

to the original poster, it is possible to have Trainz run natively on ARM desktops. There is already Trainz that run on ARM iPads and iPhones so it would be possible for them to run on desktops. Apple’s compiler(free) allows for programmers to write native applications for all of their line. It is a matter of resources being allocated vs what pays the bills.
 
Hmmm, a severe case of lag in my 60 year old headspace processor.:p I do recall reading that. Must have mice nesting in between the cogs.
 
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There is desktop and server class ARM processors already. There is even super computers using ARM. Apple’s A series CPUs already beat some Intel laptops. Apple is planning to replace all of their computers with ARM, which means they have to come out with very powerful ARM CPUs, as the pros need power.

to the original poster, it is possible to have Trainz run natively on ARM desktops. There is already Trainz that run on ARM iPads and iPhones so it would be possible for them to run on desktops. Apple’s compiler(free) allows for programmers to write native applications for all of their line. It is a matter of resources being allocated vs what pays the bills.
I may have missed it , but so far Nv3 have been silent regarding this development , which possibly means they were caught flat footed and haven’t made plans to shift mac versions of trainz to arm or they have no plans to do so , they promised metal optimized versions years ago and these don’t seem to have materialized as yet, so perhaps rather than raise expectations they are reserving their options and waiting to see what apple does in future . The lack of nvidea features is already an issue that may be exacerbated by the Arm situation , if trainz moves further towards Nvidea I can’t see how the game will give apple users a decent feature set .
 
There is desktop and server class ARM processors already. There is even super computers using ARM. Apple’s A series CPUs already beat some Intel laptops. Apple is planning to replace all of their computers with ARM, which means they have to come out with very powerful ARM CPUs, as the pros need power.

to the original poster, it is possible to have Trainz run natively on ARM desktops. There is already Trainz that run on ARM iPads and iPhones so it would be possible for them to run on desktops. Apple’s compiler(free) allows for programmers to write native applications for all of their line. It is a matter of resources being allocated vs what pays the bills.

I'm missing something here. ARM processors are RISC and Intel use a mixture of RISC and CISC. RISC is very good at keeping the power requirements down ie smartphones is where they shine. They aren't so good at feeding a powerful GPU which is basically what a gaming machine is.

Servers it depends what they are used for. Serving up files can run on RISC machines, you aren't doing very complex tasks after all. Currently an X86 server can be expected to cost more for electricity costs over a three year period than the initial purchase price and that's why there is an interest in ARM servers where they can meet the requirements. Same for specialised super computers, lower power requirements mean lower running costs and less exotic cooling systems but not all super computers are suited to RISC processors.

What is critical is the GPU, in many ways the CPU isn't so critical these days. An i5 is enough for most tasks.

From an Apple point of view running everything on ARM simplifies their operating system and an ARM processor is probably good enough computing power wise for most tasks given enough cores.

I think at the moment until we actually see an Apple desktop running on ARM and can run some benchmarks on the GPU I think it is too early to say.

Cheerio John
 
As promised, we've been working on Metal (and ARM64) support and been making good progress. In fact, we're nearly done. As with all these things, the devil is in the detail so there are changes to shaders, render pipelines and all sorts of stuff over my head. But I can say "it's not too far away".
 
As promised, we've been working on Metal (and ARM64) support and been making good progress. In fact, we're nearly done. As with all these things, the devil is in the detail so there are changes to shaders, render pipelines and all sorts of stuff over my head. But I can say "it's not too far away".

:)

You have attracted my attention! Thanks Tony
 
As promised, we've been working on Metal (and ARM64) support and been making good progress. In fact, we're nearly done. As with all these things, the devil is in the detail so there are changes to shaders, render pipelines and all sorts of stuff over my head. But I can say "it's not too far away".

Good to know. Thanks.
casey
 
That's GREAT news Tony, thanks for posting!

I'd honestly assumed that Metal support was stalled & the Mac version might die out as OpenGL eventually disappeared on the platform. Knowing that ARM64 work is also in progress gives me hope that Trainz Mac may survive the ARM transition Fingers across for usable performance.

Diego
 
As promised, we've been working on Metal (and ARM64) support and been making good progress. In fact, we're nearly done. As with all these things, the devil is in the detail so there are changes to shaders, render pipelines and all sorts of stuff over my head. But I can say "it's not too far away".


Thanks Tony! Guess my question has been answered.
 
I may have missed it , but so far Nv3 have been silent regarding this development , which possibly means they were caught flat footed and haven’t made plans to shift mac versions of trainz to arm or they have no plans to do so , they promised metal optimized versions years ago and these don’t seem to have materialized as yet, so perhaps rather than raise expectations they are reserving their options and waiting to see what apple does in future . The lack of nvidea features is already an issue that may be exacerbated by the Arm situation , if trainz moves further towards Nvidea I can’t see how the game will give apple users a decent feature set .


I never said anything to raise the hope. The original question was if it is possible. The answer to that is always yes.
 
I'm missing something here. ARM processors are RISC and Intel use a mixture of RISC and CISC. RISC is very good at keeping the power requirements down ie smartphones is where they shine. They aren't so good at feeding a powerful GPU which is basically what a gaming machine is.

Servers it depends what they are used for. Serving up files can run on RISC machines, you aren't doing very complex tasks after all. Currently an X86 server can be expected to cost more for electricity costs over a three year period than the initial purchase price and that's why there is an interest in ARM servers where they can meet the requirements. Same for specialised super computers, lower power requirements mean lower running costs and less exotic cooling systems but not all super computers are suited to RISC processors.

What is critical is the GPU, in many ways the CPU isn't so critical these days. An i5 is enough for most tasks.

From an Apple point of view running everything on ARM simplifies their operating system and an ARM processor is probably good enough computing power wise for most tasks given enough cores.

I think at the moment until we actually see an Apple desktop running on ARM and can run some benchmarks on the GPU I think it is too early to say.

Cheerio John

if I may, low power usage isn’t the main thing super computers are built for. Being in the top of super computers is not for the low power. https://bgr.com/2020/06/23/arm-supercomputer-fugaku-top-500-fastest-coronavirus/#

we have to get out of our minds that arm is strictly low power or simple tasks. 120 cores is a huge amount of computing power. Yes that is part of the general ARM roadmap. While we haven’t had a full Apple Silicone/ARM desktop, we have seen benchmarks from the developer Mac and that beats my Macs, though they are old. Those Macs of mine do run Trains, just fine, at least for me.

Further, as Apple plans to replace all their desktops, there will be high computing power Apple Silicon/ARM Macs. You cannot expect to replace the Mac Pro with a low power chip. Just not happening. Apple is working towards high computing power and power efficiency as per their slides. Apple as been designing CPUs for a long time now. Even their iPhone and iPad CPU have a lot of computing power and GPU power. There is even part of the CPU dedicated to AI. That is very complex.
 
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As promised, we've been working on Metal (and ARM64) support and been making good progress. In fact, we're nearly done. As with all these things, the devil is in the detail so there are changes to shaders, render pipelines and all sorts of stuff over my head. But I can say "it's not too far away".

I'm very glad for continued Mac support and the move to metal. Is the Arm64 windows, Mac or both? I know it has to take tremendous amount of work to change such a complex game over.
 
I never said anything to raise the hope. The original question was if it is possible. The answer to that is always yes.
how does my post refer to you ?The post was made because I had not seen any comment from nv3 , I’m glad they are continuing to support Mac, but the question re nvidia features in the present game that won’t function on the Mac hasn’t been answered, the rift between apple and nvidia is most unfortunate and it will be interesting to see how the turf fx issue will be dealt with, or whether the current state of affairs will continue to limit what can be offered to Mac users
 
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It won't affect anything. Apple licenses the instruction set & makes their own implementations. They do not license or buy individual designs. NVidia will have to keep a hands-off & open approach with their biggest customers regardless. Antitrust regulators would never approve this otherwise.
 
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