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Thread: Buyers of DLC not properly informed in the Traniz Store?

  1. #16
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    There's something important to mention here if it wasn't already. N3V does not make the content and haven't done so in nearly a decade if not longer. Whatever content you have in-game, meaning built-in, third-party, or on the download station, has been created by fellow Trainz users for our pleasure. Yes the quality is going vary with older assets being of lower quality than those from build 2.9 and upwards. This has little to do with the abilities of the content creator and more to do with what was available technically at the time. Assets created in 2001 will have fewer details than those created today. It's pretty obvious why. The computer hardware we had then pales compared to what we have today. The older program versions didn't have the capabilities the current versions have. It's amazing even today that the old stuff still works just the same, and in some cases looks better. Yes, as you've noticed, the skill level going to vary with some assets better than others, but that's the breaks when you have people creating stuff for the fun of it and willing to share their creations with us.

    The fact that many of these older assets still work is a good thing, and yes they can be used on routes today. In some cases, a route builder will find that an older asset suits their needs and as the old saying goes why reinvent the wheel when the old one works perfectly fine. There are also those that are best avoided for many reasons and they pretty much have been. Now, it goes without saying here, you can always create your own content if you so choose if you are not satisfied by what others are giving you for FREE. There is that very long learning curve plus time, and some expense if you want to go that far into it.

    If you have found quality issues with routes, in particular built-in ones, report the errors. Some built-in routes, as has been mentioned, are being reworked and will be rereleased in a future update. This reworking takes time as since the routes need to go through testing and retesting to assure there's little or no issues with the routes.

    If you come across missing dependencies, mention what they are. Saying something is broken is like going to the doctor and saying it hurts without providing details. With 10s of thousands of routes available, it's difficult knowing exactly which route is broken. You need to remember as mentioned above, N3V does not create the content and it's provided by the community. You also have to keep in mind that not all of us have the same content you have, or if we do we have plenty of other assets as well.

    There's currently a program in place, in addition to what was mentioned here called CRG. The Content Repair Group is a small, and I mean tiny, ever so tiny, group of volunteers who are cleaning up the content on the DLS at the request of N3V. This means updating, repairing, and testing. At the present time, there's about 7400 or so assets still in need of repair and testing. That's a lot of assets and a lot of time spent, which could be spent elsewhere such as making new assets, routes, and sessions.
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
    Trainz User ID: 124863
    T:ANE Build: 94829
    TRS2019/Trainz-PLUS: 106618

  2. #17
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    Hi 1611mac.

    They were described in the opening post. Since they are from old versions I do not have the specifics. As for TRAINZ 2019 the tutorial base map, Kickstarter 2, has track flaws as described and confirmed by Tony_Hilliam and Forrester1 in a different thread on this subject in the FORUM.

  3. #18
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    Hi 1611mac.

    The first post listed the problems I've encountered on various versions of TAINZ or purchased items such as Classic Cabon City. And now on the latest version, TRAINZ 2019 as I pointed out, there are two flaws in the trackwork in the TURORIAL. The base map, Kickstart 2 has two kinks in the mainline. If taken at track speed you will derail.

    I just ran a couple of the sessions tonight on the route Cornish Mainline and Branches. This route is included in the European edition and the Platinum (my version). While playing I noticed several areas of track that were not of high quality, There were minor kinks in the mainline and in the yards the trackwork on ladder tracks and between switches was quite poor. An since I have made my own routes, I recognize when the track was not well placed because I made the same mistakes many times myself. Over all it was OK but as part of the game people are paying for, I expect these flaws to be fixed.

    On the second session there were glaring errors in trackwork. There was missing track and track that should not have been there. Here are some screenshots:

    This one shows a switch in a yard that goes nowhere.
    http://www.trainzportal.com/mytrainz...post_id=196370

    This one shows missing track after a switch (that is required to get the train to its final destination) You can work around this by going though a shed, but I don't think that was the intention.
    https://www.trainzportal.com/mytrain...post_id=196368

    These types of errors should have been screened when beta testing and fixed. Sure some things will always be missed, but if they are, fix them! Make a patch! That is the correct and professional thing to do. The DEVS at TRAINS do not do this.

    One more observation on my logging in problem. It does appear my problem is based on the server. At home I did not have the same problem when opening the FORUM. I did not have to log in again. BUT when trying to find the screenshots I uploaded I was asked to login to use all the features of the screenshot page even when I was already logged in. When I attempted to login from the screenshot pate I was sent back to the home page and this made a loop that got me nowhere.


  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by grandpa1955 View Post
    This one shows a switch in a yard that goes nowhere.
    http://www.trainzportal.com/mytrainz...post_id=196370

    This one shows missing track after a switch (that is required to get the train to its final destination) You can work around this by going though a shed, but I don't think that was the intention.
    https://www.trainzportal.com/mytrain...post_id=196368
    It took some searching but I did manage to locate the first screenshot - at the station Cambourne. I am not familiar with the track infrastructure standards for that particular railway and era (perhaps GWR? but that is a pure guess) but it seems to me that this (and possibly the second which I have not yet located) represent catchpoints and are therefore "complete".

    My theory.
    Last edited by pware; September 26th, 2020 at 08:45 PM. Reason: typo
    TRS19 Platinum Edition SP2 (beta) 109037 - TRS19 SP1 (standard) 105096

  5. #20
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    Hi pware.

    The first appears to me to be an obvious error. They placed a junction where is was not supposed to be and did not take it out. If you look at the spacing of the mainline, it is consistent and even. Then this switch was thrown in (I'm sure by accident) in a space where a railroad car or locomotive could not possibly fit. It would hit any train on adjacent tracks.

    The second is just a couple hundred yards away. It appears obvious to me they placed a junction but forgot to connect it to the track leaving the open spur.

  6. #21
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    Over the years, track configurations change. Occasionally a piece of track may be left behind and the points "spiked normal", to be removed completely at a later date. The second shot appears to show a set of catch points made from a former slip. Proper catch points in that situation, would probably be set back further, so it may be simply a removed slip track.
    Graeme

  7. #22
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    I agree with grazlash. Historical track stubs as well as catchpoints are more obvious explanations to me than design errors or forgetting to remove unwanted tracks or completing unfinished tracks.
    TRS19 Platinum Edition SP2 (beta) 109037 - TRS19 SP1 (standard) 105096

  8. #23
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    Hi JCitron.

    I am well aware NV3 does not make their own content. However they are still responsible for the quality and content of the stuff in the products they sell.

    Consider all the thousands of items General Motors subcontracts out to other companies to make their cars and trucks. Can you imagine GM saying they are not responsible for the quality and workmanship of these items? Well they are. Legally its called Vicarious Liability.

    So as I've said before; when I buy something I expect it to work. If it doesn't I expect it to be fixed. When I buy a product form NV3 I expect it to work. If it doesn't I expect it to be fixed. It doesn't matter who actually created the item (rolling stock, scenery item, route, session), NV3 is responsible for the material they sell and responsible for fixing it. It is not the responsibility of a small group of dedicated TRAINZ users.

    So when I bought TRAINZ 2019 and found flaws in the TUTORIAL that uses Kickstarter 2 map, this is unacceptable and needs to be fixed. Here a a few screenshots of the flaws in the trackwork I found.

    https://www.trainzportal.com/mytrain...post_id=196400
    https://www.trainzportal.com/mytrain...post_id=196401
    https://www.trainzportal.com/mytrain...post_id=196402
    https://www.trainzportal.com/mytrain...post_id=196403
    https://www.trainzportal.com/mytrain...post_id=196404
    https://www.trainzportal.com/mytrain...post_id=196405
    https://www.trainzportal.com/mytrain...post_id=196406

  9. #24
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    Thanks for posting grazlash and pware.

    I have seen many routes model abandoned spurs and track. Never have I seen it done like this. Furthermore, the missing track is at a point where you need that switch to complete the session. Lets just say we disagree on this point.

  10. #25
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    May I refer you to this article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch_points) which has some example that look very much like those shown in your screenshots.
    TRS19 Platinum Edition SP2 (beta) 109037 - TRS19 SP1 (standard) 105096

  11. #26
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    That's weird, I've driven that part of KSC2 and have not seen that before. There is a track straightening issue there which could possibly have been caused by a patch or some other corruption of the route. I have seen a couple of other people post similar problems on different routes which are still being investigated. One particular user seems to have nothing but trouble with tracks losing straightening and fallen bridges, where the majority of people do not. Most issues with TRS19 these days appear to be asset related, so the first thing I would do is some simple maintenence. Run the out of date filter in CM, select all and right click and choose 'list asset versions' sort by status and select any 'available for download', download and then delete all non built-in obsoletes. By listing asset versions, you will be able to download updates for built-in assets. Deleting the obsoletes forces the updated assets to be used and removes a cause of faulty assets. I would run a database repair after deleting the obsoletes.
    I would send a bug report as it may help solve this issue for you and anyone else that encounters it.
    cheers
    Graeme
    Last edited by grazlash; September 27th, 2020 at 12:34 AM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCitron View Post
    Roy wanted to release this as a single route, but N3V insisted on carving it up into pieces. It's too bad we can't edit the routes and merge them together. I have his original ca. TS12 version of the same route and it's an amazing job he did with the complete Canadian Rockies route. I used to spend a lot of time running passenger and freights over the mountains with plenty of through freights running from east to west across the Continental Divide while I drove the Canadian and other passenger trains myself.

    Dear John, grandpa,Forester1 and others.
    Here some insides that might shed some light in a long dark tunnel.
    John is correct i had several prototypical Canadian Rocky Mountains Subdivisions made in full since TRS12.
    The time and work and countless repairs/redo on this I cannot describe.

    In one thing John is wrong in a way writing N3V insisted on carving up my large routes into pieces it was a little but different and a worse case scenario for route creators as such.
    Tane was the last "release" of a trainz version where i was able to work on and create real Subdivisions!
    TRS19 came as a blessing and curse for me.
    Out of the blue sky came a meteorite and smashed into my routes gone to pieces not working anymore, to big in size. How come, well some programmer or entity decided we make TRS19 route 30-50% larger in MB without telling anybody at least not me.
    The result was my routes which were all close to 1.5GB and as such obselete not working anymore, no cdp possible no upload possible. 1GB or more exact today 800 MB on the save side allows one to make a cdp and or upload.
    The shockwave I can still feel today and it saddens me a lot.
    No solution offered everybody busy with making TRS19 working I was on my own on the trainz ocean in a life raft and water but no food.
    I am a life time seasoned ocean sailor and have sailed most oceans in my lifetime but this one was of another magnitude.
    To make things worse the leftovers from TANE and things done there I can see in the far distant including i offered generously to n3v the Columbia River Basin as a built-in later named as Golden,BC by n3v(not seeing the long term consequences for me and my larger routes overlapping partly or touching/brushing this route section because they are part of the bigger picture: my real proto subsections from Calgary to Vancouver.)
    So honest today i understand why they had no choice but at least could have told me way ahead of things to happen but ok things happen in life without any warning.
    TRS12,TANE,TRS19 are ALL very different beasts to control from my experience with trainz since 2004.
    It is to easy to say bring a route over from an older version into the newer it si so easy just turn the switch and the light is on.
    Part of the confusion created by the DLC since TANE is that none TRS19 routes created by me are still sold for Trainz not saying its a TANE route originally but would run also on TRS19 without any TRS19 feature and upgrade.
    Golden, BC as built-in route not had any of myTRS19 add ons repairs and redo's which are numerous. It is close to a redo of the route especially texturing and tracks trainz behaviour so irratic you have to repair/redo per m2 not km2. Same for rivers and creeks and not to forget floating roads. Ghost entities we better not talk about.
    So long story short: maybe nobody to blame just me being victim of 'unfortunate events'.
    The creation of different size section of the original one took me 2 years (weekdays and weekends and night shifts included) trying to get things on the DLC.(which is another level of patience testing").
    The built-in Golden,BC aka the older Columbia River Basin (TANE) was "updated and enhanced" by n3v not by me.
    I have my own way of how to build and enhance my routes and for TRS19 all my route names start with TRS19 Canadian Rocky Mountains xxxhere the route name.
    The TRS19 Canadian Rocky Mountains Beavermouth to Ottertail is a true TRS19 roystrainz route using to build with the at that time available routines and commands.
    I am currently still working on and trying to finish in the next 12 or so month the Cochrane to SE Calgary which is huge and TRS19 only.
    Maybe my adventure ends there, me running out of fun, steam,water and energy, getting questioned over and over again.
    Real route builders know what it takes te build a route of some serious size, few know what it takes to do mainntenance and endless repairs.
    Few bystanders have a some idea/clue of the reality of route building and updates over the years..
    Enough said and yes I am tired if that is the correct expression.
    You all have a nice day.
    Last edited by RoysTrainz; September 28th, 2020 at 12:22 AM.
    The makers of the famous Canadian Rocky Mountains routes
    Master my all new TRS19 Canadian Rocky Mountains routes

  13. #28
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    Hi Grandpa1955
    We are aware of this issue, and it should be fixed in the next update for TRS19. However performing an extended database should resolve this issue in most cases (it does seem to vary depending on the computer unfortunately), which you can do by following these steps:

    1) Double click on the Trainz icon on your desktop
    2) Click on 'Developer' at the top of the launch window
    3) Hold the CTRL key, and then left click on 'rebuild database'.

    Once the database rebuild completes, it should then resolve this issue on Kickstarter County 2.

    In regards to the trackwork on the routes available from the Trainz Store, and included within Trainz, such as shown in your screenshots, this is up to the creators of the routes to make as realistic as they are able to. This often does include trackwork changes as per prototype for different time periods, which isn't always done 'perfectly' (I've personally encountered pointwork on operational railways that are complete; except for the 'frog'/'crossover' in the turnout which had been removed and a piece of rail for the straight path left in; the point lever was still connected and could be used if unclipped). This does mean that some trackwork can become a little unusual/odd looking at times, and often requires some creating shunting moves, such as going through the track with a shed, to complete shunting operations.

    We do work with creators to make improvements where noted, however it is still up to the creators to ensure that their routes are as realistic/accurate as possible. We have in the last few months introduced a new system for content creators to manage the beta testing of their routes more directly, and we are currently working to further improve testing/checking of routes and sessions before release.

    Regards
    Zec Murphy

    Customer Support Rep
    N3V Games (Auran)

    *Please do not use Private Messages for support. Support can only be provided via the helpdesk, or via the forums.

  14. #29
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    RoysTrainz -- You do an excellent job of explaining the life of a route creator. Perhaps a written agreement that No Changes can be made to the purchased route without the consent of the original owner. Irresponsible management fiddling in-house is only asking for trouble. Trouble that ends up on the plate of the author and the customers. When the product is segment, allegedly to fit a region, it is yet another variation with its own unique issues. More stuff to manage. More stuff to test. More stuff to market. More confusion for the new customer.

    If N3v was more careful with the many versions, perhaps some problems could be avoided for them, and the author. Could issues be avoided. As a programmer makes changes detailed descriptions are needed so the testers can stress these areas. Does N3V ask the tester to make a submitted fix, do they do the fix in-house, or do they refer it to the author? It seems the author discovers changes from those that use their product.
    As an added toll on authors, many problems may be left behind -to be fixed later. The product should work well but some errors are known and temporarily accepted.

    I am, and never will be, an author. But, after reading the preceding message I came to a stark appreciation for the possible quagmire they encounter.
    Thanks to those who labor for countless hours and receive payment. Payment that is far below the minimum hourly wage in the USA. You guys hold this company together. Routes or assets - without them this product would not exist. THANKS!!
    Dick near Pittsburgh, Pa. i5-2500K 4.2ghz, 8gb memory, GTX1060 3gb video card. 109552

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by boleyd View Post
    RoysTrainz -- You do an excellent job of explaining the life of a route creator. Perhaps a written agreement that No Changes can be made to the purchased route without the consent of the original owner. Irresponsible management fiddling in-house is only asking for trouble. Trouble that ends up on the plate of the author and the customers. When the product is segment, allegedly to fit a region, it is yet another variation with its own unique issues. More stuff to manage. More stuff to test. More stuff to market. More confusion for the new customer.
    Dick,

    the fiddling was with consent of the author but only cosmetic add's.
    The downside of it was it was far from what the proto route should show and more a showroom of at that time nice good looking big chunks of rocks how to use in any fictional route or route were indeed they mimic reality.

    Again to be honest the coincidance of TRS19 MB size changed dramatically was not intended by n3v just pur bad luck for me.
    Most routes out there on the DLC are small or medium size compared to mine and detailed only near track were mine are detailed all over miles away from track.

    When trainzers start mumbling about discounts as if that is the only thing we breath at the receiver side to feel good and forgetting the producing side ends up with less than a hand full of coins than there is a fundamental breach of descency and respect.This cannot work on the long term!

    Since TRS19 n3v introduced a limit of pricing at 39.99 $ for what they call big route and sessions.
    This is so utterly unreal and unfair words fail to even get close what it feels like to have no choice.

    One can conclude and it had been said many times in the grapevine, certain individuals are not willing to pay a fair prize 70 or even the halved price of 40 usd for a extremely large big route even if it is worth a lot more.
    So coming to the realisation living in a brave new world of different standards one can only try to produce smaller sized routes to keep some visual balance in size,quality and prize.......
    n3v use the marketing tool for cooking the sales stew and throw dlc chunks in the boiling pot for big sales called black friday and sorts of weird names, yes for me it is black friday by ALL means.

    The already underpayed route becomes like a sliced pizza, have a chunk for only 2 $ or the entire pizza for 5 $. Marketing calls it win by the numbers for them it might be true but for the individual creators it is far from as the number per creator are totally different from what n3v cashes with all the pizza's different flavors sold.
    I almost feel like the pizza man.

    To end with the newly introduced TCCP 2.0 (no it has no links with CCP) is another phenomena intended to relieve n3v from the suicidal process of handling all incoming assets and process them in house for DLC ready output.
    The intention is good and clear and I actually told them years ago to please look for a way to NOT do the entire process in house( they not have the resources no one has) but allow the creator to have access to and upload their assets to trainz.

    Now we as creators end up in a strict,very strict process of steps to try to upload (internet works or has glitches as usual) and hope the asset makes it tot the first destination on TCCP.
    To makes things worse their upload system only reckonize a fully uploaded asset and not have a safe partial upload if a glitch or interruption of the internet happens. Like we are used to continue where you left off if the file not made it in full.

    I live in the NNE of Thailand far from civilisation and just within the range of an antenna 10 km away and have a for my standards good to very well link. regular is upl a solid 30-40 MBS or bad one 5 MBS, dl 30-40MBS very good one 50-60 MBS and bad one's 10MBS from friday thru sunday as the bandwith is used for Thais of all ages to flock the internet.

    So uploading a 7.3GB file on my google drive takes me roughly 15-20 min when going well. Upload to n3v is the slowest of all and it takes me roughly 10 hours if go well to get that file uploaded.
    The chances are like 1 out of 10 trials makes it all the other fail somewhere down the road or just at the 10th hour for whatever reason. Drove me totally nuts and I said no more upload that way.
    Upload also means you cannot work on anything other than that route and if your have a freeze or crash yes your tccp is gone too because you have to reboot the system.

    Beta testing is the next level to go thru and try to survive and before you know it you as the author are doing the job of others identifying bugs,glitches and other critters and report them in a format defined by n3v.
    Bug report they only do work on reports they can read and it needs to be absolutely programmer style detailed to make it thru the screening.

    I am a route and asset creator/author and not a bug fixer/identifier/reporter.
    If you are lucky the route makes it thru the beta testing and if you had encountered a trs19 bug you are in for a different ride you not expect.
    ALL posts from beta testers including bugs and critters or advice from testers must be answered and "followed up" by the author.
    The route will not go the the next level before all posts are answered and cleared. Sounds like a big fly catcher and it is similar to the black hole mosquito catcher looks awsome but the catch is nowhere to be seen. Maybe it sreally a black hole to absorbs the critters, would be nice.

    So this is getting a really lengthy post and let's end with if you have some big and good your window of making it thru the DLC within the life expectancy of eg TRS19 is very narrow.
    The processes of creating things and get it cleared by all different levels of steps to make it to a TCCP build version and the final test version and the final give green light by n3v..... is quite lengthy.

    I know TCCP 2.0 is not a final version it goes thru the growth process of any new system trying to put in place.

    Roy
    The makers of the famous Canadian Rocky Mountains routes
    Master my all new TRS19 Canadian Rocky Mountains routes

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