My suggestion to the developers for trainz

I don't know how to post this into the suggestions forum page but here is my suggestion after going through my recent predicament.

Please release the information on exactly what the e-spec is and does. Why is it that they will give us the ability to create any spec we want but after searching the internet for the data on what the parameters actually do there's nothing! What's the point in giving us this creation ability to not give the working of its calculations so people actually know what it will (definitely) do.

This comment made in 2011 by a member with my thoughts words this much better

"...(well maybe - nobody really knows what it does)."
This is the understatement of the year for this simulator. As an old-time (79 in Dec) ex-programmer, I am gobsmacked by the response of Auran/N3V when it comes to the enginespec kuid. They provide a mechanism for us to implement customized performance for a locomotive and yet, don't provide us the specification for it's mechanization.

They must have published, if only for internal use, the equations that define the physical system used to simulate steam and diesel locomotive performance but have steadfastly stonewall us on providing this information to us (their customers). How can you program a function without a spec??? How can you validate/verify the software without a spec????

All we need is an honest definition of each parameter and it's scaling and we could all be happier.

Come on N3V and gives us a Christmas present and reveal the secrets of the enginespec. I don't think it will compromise Australian National Security:eek: .

Bob Weber"

After trying for the last week as a new member of trainz to figure this out has been a nightmare. I must thank all of those that I have contacted and probably had to put up with me about this as they have been an amazing help. The wiki tells you what's there and it's outcome but as my request is. Never tells you what the change actually is for some things.
The closest info to being good is the how to tune a steam espec on the wiki which goes into great detail.
While I don't know their reasoning, it seems to make no since on why this info is just not public.
Regards,
The Brougham Gamer
 
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Anyways this is just my 2 cents. I'm sure that people with more understanding of codes and programming have less trouble making them. It's just so weird to me that the info is there but still not at the same time.
 
Curiously, Test Track has a bug. To get the control panel in order to drive, you must open the Trains menu and then close it again if there is already a loco on the track section. I guess since you would normally add a loco from that menu first, no one checked to see what happened if you didn't.

William
 
I've never used Test Track. I have a route downloaded from the DLS that crosses some fairly challenging terrain and I always use that.
 
The test track module is unfinished and still has some unwanted bugs in addition to the one that William mentioned. I had the Test Track pick up my TEST XXX route as its base route and had all kinds of stuff in it that's not relevant to testing like holes, blocks of terrain, trees, and some textures. My TEST XXX is a scratchpad route for checking assets and shouldn't have been chosen by the program. I reported this bug, but never heard anything on it.

And finally, steam locomotives still aren't supported which is really annoying. This is the same as it was in T:ANE.
 
The test track module is unfinished and still has some unwanted bugs in addition to the one that William mentioned. I had the Test Track pick up my TEST XXX route as its base route and had all kinds of stuff in it that's not relevant to testing like holes, blocks of terrain, trees, and some textures. My TEST XXX is a scratchpad route for checking assets and shouldn't have been chosen by the program. I reported this bug, but never heard anything on it.

And finally, steam locomotives still aren't supported which is really annoying. This is the same as it was in T:ANE.
As I understand it, the Test Track module can be used to experiment with tweaking e-specs. I've never tried it since I only use DCC mode.

Here is a link to the wiki section about Test Track.

http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/Test_Track:Main_Menu

Good luck,

William
Well I guess no one here has read my posts on the subject. I've complained for years about the "Test Track" feature introduced in TANE. My complaint is simple: you cannot test a steam loco using this new feature

Error: Steam powered locomotives are not yet supported by the Test Track.
Please delet all steam powered locos before continuing.
Whatever the reason it is not a bug. This was a deliberate decision not to include testing of steam locomotives by N3V on the new Test Track feature. It's been what 5 years maybe more now since this error message 1st appeared with the release of TANE.

The above is still the error you get when you try it in TANE or TRS19. I was hoping for more. Back in the Kickstarter program leading up to TANE I was lead to believe I could do just that - they even asked for input on testing steam locos - but apparently it was more than N3V was able to include at that time or since.

To the OP:
If you know how a steam loco works (having some inkling of mechanics and thermodynamics is also helpful) you should be able to develop especs for them. I muddle thru using my own program and spreadsheets based mostly on some 1st principles of mechanics and thermo and results from in-game testing. My major headache with the steam loco especs specifically is they initialize a process that I see as still having some problems with how the underlying steam physics was programmed. Currently I don't think you can use actual dimensions and characteristics for all tags. Some have to be modified in specific ways to match known loco performance. By applying 1st principles and known characteristics I should be able to come close to the locos known performance. I should but in some measures of loco performance I can't which leads me to believe they still have some problems to work out. I've sent in some of my test reports and plots - I've yet to see theirs.

Documentation? What's on the wiki is a good 1st stab at it. You should be able to use what's on the wiki and ask a few specific questions about what you don't understand. There are 2 tags there that I know still list incorrect units and several more where useful description is lacking. I know N3V views the wiki as a community project but a lot of what I think I know is based on my own testing - in a game that doesn't officially support the testing of steam locos - so we are on our own. The physics behind the steam locomotive is fairly complicated. They know or should know what was programmed and what every parameter represented by an espec tag does, the applicable units for the tag, the range of values over which it is valid and more than just a basic description of what its purpose is. That's my view on it. They know - we poke and guessimate at it.

I wrote my own scripts that record the data from test runs of steam locos in Trainz on my long flat oval track ~24 km around. They write out to a log file and I post process those results in another program. No need to worry about the hills, valleys and curves until the major characteristics of the plant are settled on. Tractive force, horsepower and heat balance don't care what causes the load on the coupler. I drag just one boxcar behind the tender that has the recording script and can be loaded up to represent a full consist between 0 and 10000 tonnes with a special queue I added to it. Trainz doesn't care about how much weight is on an axle it simply uses it to calculated a load that must be overcome to move the train. Sorry, no bearing overheating, structural failure or rail deformation programmed. 8-( I can use a custom espec for the boxcar if I want to generate a variety of non standard resistance loads. The motor section of the espec covers most of it although not everything since a couple of resistance parameters are hard coded and N3V haven't published them.

So we don't know what resistance algorithms are actually programmed but we can come close based on documentation and in-game testing. That's maybe where running over the hills, valleys and curves is worth while, among other reasons, to tweek things if necessary. On a normal Trainz route the curves are the biggest problem in determining the train resistance. We can determine the coefficient used by testing (one of those unpublished items) but getting the track curvature to apply to the individual railcars is a bit tricky - not as simple as getting the instantaneous gradient under each car from the API. On my flat oval I ignore it even though I know the curvature of the oval ends. It might be possible but it's still an additional problem for the script to determine when the car enters and leaves the curve. For now the test results just show a drop in TE produced and speed realized for that section of the track.

For the firebox and boiler tests if you know the max evaporation rate for the boiler you're designing you don't even need a test route to run. Nothing more than a single section of track to set the loco on is necessary to run stationary tests of its steaming capacity. The test set up uses just the steam blower and safety values with a special espec for the test.

Finally you can't test for a proper design of the steam locomotive if the wheels are spinning. Is it too much power output or lack of adhesive weight? The 2nd you can check easily but the first you'll never determine with the wheels spinning. I disable wheelslip when I design and test the especs. When the design is finalized and wheelslip enbled the loco should behave in a prototypical manner when it runs in general service on the route.

I wish you luck, some of us have spent years - a week maybe asking for a lot.

Bob Pearson
 
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I wish you luck, some of us have spent years - a week maybe asking for a lot.

Bob Pearson
for the week it is just me trying to discover what everything is. My personal idea is that it shouldn't be this bad for a community in trying to figure out how to make something that is an essential part of the game.
 
I thank everyone that has responded here with your incite and answers.
at the moment im going to continue in trying to understand everything to the best of my ability and work towards improving the espec im working on to the best of my ability.
 
The only other advice I can give is to download various engine specs similar to the tractive ability of your engine, pull them apart and see what of them works for you. Azervich makes many engine specs for both steam and diesel.
 
The only other advice I can give is to download various engine specs similar to the tractive ability of your engine, pull them apart and see what of them works for you. Azervich makes many engine specs for both steam and diesel.
that is a very good idea. Right now i'm working on a spec for the Allegheny. since trainz has one and Neal has one i'm cross checking the values and performance i get with those to mine. once I make a few and start getting more of the hang of it they should be better. I might see if Lerro over at K&L has a spec sheet or something that he uses. If he doesn't just some good advice is swell.

yet again a big thanks to all these replies! I hope everyone has a great week.
regards,
The Brougham Gamer
 
Hi The Brougham Gamer
You can find the official reference for all tags for the steam loco enginespec files here: http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/KIND_Steam-engine

Additionally, there is a guide for tuning steam locomotive enginespecs here: http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/HowTo/Tune_a_Steam_Locomotive_Enginespec

If you are looking to also tweak the DCC side of the enginespec then you can also find a guide for this here: http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/HowTo/Tune_a_DCC_EngineSpec

Please note that we do sometimes make tweaks/adjustments to the code for the physics, so the exact operation of the enginespec can sometimes vary between versions. However it has been reasonably stable for the last few releases IIRC.

Regards
 
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