How do I stop cheating? (Invisible signals in track profile display)

These comments use philskene's Port Zyd route as an example but this post is NOT about that route. It is about a thought that just struck me after a year and a half of Trainz'ing!

I really enjoy the Port Zyd route. But in running more and more these days in cab view, I discovered something. I un-knowingly am cheating! How? By watching Invisible Signals showing their aspect in the track profile at the bottom of the HUD. The PZ&F is "dark" but it is signaled in several places where it crosses a double main line. Because of those signals at the mains, AI trains can run up to the full 40 mph track speed since they are controlled by Invisible Signals.

Two things occurred to me. First, my total lack of thought about invisible signals being used to control AI trains in dark territory and my dependence upon them while supposedly driving in mostly unsignaled territory.

Second, how the AI trains have an advantage over a real Driver (me) due to all the invisible signals (assuming HUD is off). How? A single regular (visible) signal is often hidden around a curve or behind a tree or building. AI knows it's state well before I do. Invisible signals are used to slow the AI trains, but a Driver does not have that advantage.

With the HUD (invisible signals) turned off, how do I drive more prototypically? I know little about warrants, DTC, and how speed is controlled under these methods. Perhaps I'd have in my hands a timetable containing track speeds? (I know of no mile markers on the PZ&F - track speed of entire route is 40mph as best I've experienced and remember.)

Comments? Thank You!

(p.s. Again, general questions, not only about Port Zyd & Fulazturn Railroad.)

In the middle of the last century, a TO/TT system was used (train order/time table). You can google it, I won't do that here. Also widely used still in model railroad operating sessions (real ones). Not really very applicable to Trainz, but you asked for other systems.

The AI use that advantage too to lock their routes so us human drivers can't do things. If we set a switch ahead of time in our favor, the AI will still lock a junction at the very last second for themselves causing either a derailment, or put the train on the wrong track! There's nothing worse than getting out on the mainline and working out a back up move only to find an AI driver has locked the junction. I wait until the AI is close enough then stop it so I can back up on to a siding or branch then let the AI loose again.

Sure using interlocking towers and all the baggage that goes with them works mostly for this, but for a simple yard operation and a move on to a mainline, it becomes more work than is necessary for some situations. I think this setup then become a band-aid and chewing gum fix for something that should be automatic, meaning some kind of real dispatcher system, and human drivers having precedent over the AI. For some reason this latter part seems to be a change because it operated differently in the past. Thinking about it now, perhaps I've got my rose-colored glass on at the moment and my memory has faded more than it already has.

To get around the AI, my system is to check with the dispatcher, meaning the map view. If all is clear for a good distance, I'll proceed out on the mainline and do what I have to do within that short time window I have. I know it's not ideal, but without an actual dispatcher operating, there's not much else we can do. Now if we had a decent schematic view of our routes running in a separate window, that would really help.

Signals in Trainz are an attempt to impose operating rules on AI drivers, and a fitful attempt at that.

Real movements, whether TT/TO or warrant, conform to a thick little book of rules the 1:1 trainman must have memorized or be able to refer to quickly. For example, unscheduled trains operating within marked yard limits shall restrict their speed so that they are able to stop in less than half the visibility distance.

Employee timetables inform you of distances, siding capacities, speeds and special rules and are lots more complex than passengers' timetables.

So Trainz is really more of a game than a simulator. But it's fun. Or frustrating. Or both. Part of that is the short distances on many routes, "model railroads" especially. A train pops out of a portal and lands in your lap.

But I maunder.

:B~)

P.S.
There is not much difference between the Track Order and the Warrant in substance - the Warrant reduces the freehand TO to a set of checkboxes and fill-in-the blanks and is transmitted by voice phone or radio rather than telegraph, teletype or stationary phone.

If the author of the route can provide some clarification:

Port Zyd has a very long history. It's another of my routes where the AI has a separated track that in places shares a short section of single track with the Player train. The switch leading into the single track squeeze point is always set against the AI train, so the signal facing the AI train at the squeeze point is always red. And stays red until the AI train activates the switch into the single track section. In the good old days of TRS2004 the AI trainz used to crawl along when approaching a signal at red. The distance at which this low speed commenced was measured in astronomical units, in other words, light years or more. To speed up the AI I always placed an additional approach signal. This would always show yellow. It helped speed up the AI. In some routes this signal may be invisible. But, anyway, it should not be visible to the Player 'cause he ain't supposed to be on that track anyway -- it's for the exclusive use of the AI.

But in may places on the Player sections there are invisible signals, for a reason. Unless a signal can see a clear path to the next signal (and signals includes bumpers / buffers at the end of spurs / sidings) it will show a red indication. If there is a freight car in the way or if a trailing switch is incorrectly set the red signal will never clear. That freight car or trailing switches could be miles away. So the Player waits and waits, trying to work out why he's not allowed to proceed. The easy way around this is to introduce an invisible signal before trailing switches and places where stationary freight cars could be spotted. The visible signal sees the invisible signal. The invisible signal could be red or yellow or green, depending on what is ahead. The visible signal always shows yellow or green, never red, and the can Player proceed. Well, until he bumps into something or forces his way through a training switch.

Phil

to me it is about enjoying oneself in the game doing whatever floats our boat..like in real life you learn the section and learn what to do where being the driver in cab mode.

OP here.. in a feeble attempt to explain my original post-
It was not about AI. It was not about route design. It was not about signaling. (Though all those things are involved.)

It was about a moment in time when this thought struck me:
"If I drive my train using driver 'AI' commands, I zip around at 40 mph. If I drive my train myself and I do that, I'm in big trouble because I don't have the advantage of the "invisible signals" showing me conditions ahead. And more than that, if I drive the train "prototypically" in "dark territory" I'm going to be going so much slower than if driving with AI commands.

Perhaps it struck me as to how "false" driving is when using AI commands. Perhaps it struck me that I had been driving so unprototypically. Perhaps it struck me that I just "automatically accepted" watching the invisible signals guide me with signal indications on in the track profile HUD.

I had actually added additional signals where the local line crosses the main just to get an "approach medium" (proper term?) aspect as I approached. But then I read some old posts on invisible signals. There were lot's of explanations such as "route builders use them where it would not be appropriate to have a visible signal for prototypical operation." I stopped to think- It hit me. The difference between prototypical driving and AI driving! It's a big thing! And in a year and a half of having '19 I had really never stopped and really, really, thought about this and all those invisible signals. I had never thought about how the route builder really builds two routes, one for driving, one for AI.

Anyway... thanks to all who replied. I do really appreciate it.

Phil: Thanks for a fun route. I basically drive now by that "little black book" that RHKluckhom mentions above. Oh, and with no signal indications in the HUD.

I enjoy seeing the profile but at times really don't want to see the signal. So for me (I haven't drove much in Trainz) I follow signal indications. If it says clear to medium I get down to medium speed by the next signal. I don't want to cheat by looking at the profile because the player wouldn't have that in the real world (unless he has a cab signal).

As for track warrants, you would only get a warrant as the dispatcher provides. Technically here the signals on the graph are good but the information is given to you a bit quicker. One command in a warrant is a clearance the whole length with a protect against clause. So if your following a train, that train is indicating when he is clear of certain MP etc. So many different systems like OCS in Canada, DTW, track warrant, etc. etc. Some are divided by block names, others can be given by MP and station name signs.

Thanks

Sean