Trainz Wiki and Volunteers

Not quite sure where to post this, so I am starting here.

Trainz has been a hobby for me since 2004 and offered many, many hours of enjoyment (and some frustrations). It occurred to me after reading some recent posts that one way to pay something forward would be to add some updated information to the Wiki, which is terribly out of date. This is particularly important given the situation we are all in at this time, with long hours confined, or semi-confined, at home, -- an ideal time to make this sort of contribution.

I recently re-skinned the ALCo 0-4-0T done by bdaneal to Olympia Brewing's yard switcher livery. While I was about it, I decided to update all of the dependencies and the asset to current Trainz build levels at build 3.5. In doing so, I needed a lot of information on the steam container changes as well as chages to enginespec and enginesound. I discovered that the information contained in the wiki on these subjects is woefully out of date.

So, I am committed to attempting some sort of wilki update, and thought to start on the steam container tags, many of which do not exist in the wiki or have no resemblance to current build levels. I learned a lot about them during my little update effort, but a lot of information is still lacking both to the tags and also to their relevance to performance. I do not have access to the NV3 protected sources, of course, so I am wondering if anyone has some supplemental or updated date on the new tags and their usage, and is willing to share it. Not necessary to post it, just drop me a line by PM and/or email with attachments.

Thanks, in advance for anything you may be able to supply.

Robert, very commendable undertaking. I wish you the best.

So, I am committed to attempting some sort of wilki update, and thought to start on the steam container tags, many of which do not exist in the wiki or have no resemblance to current build levels. I learned a lot about them during my little update effort, but a lot of information is still lacking both to the tags and also to their relevance to performance.

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I believe you are referring to the steam container documentation located here. If so I'm not aware of any new tags that are not listed. You could argue from the very start that the exact definition, use and range of appropriate values for the entire listing has not been overwhelming. Most at least have some sort of definition, units and default values listed.

A few tags are missing appropriate units but that might be just because as they are used in the game code they are just numbers. A couple of tags I know for a fact are given incorrect units in the wiki description - something I've been meaning to edit but it's not on my radar at the moment.

From the very beginning back in TRS2004 Auran/N3V have left it up to the users to sort it all out. That has more or less continued with the "new" steam physics introduced in TRS09. Basically it's been here it is - use it. The wide range of especs with good and bad performance and everything in between is the result. No aids and standards for in game testing, limited guidance and wheelslip masquerading results does not help.

I do not have access to the NV3 protected sources, of course, so I am wondering if anyone has some supplemental or updated date on the new tags and their usage, and is willing to share it.

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AFAIK no one outside N3V has access to the code and from what I learned from exchanges with N3V personnel not many inside have either. I suspect none really understand it.

I have my own set of spreadsheets and tests scripts along with post processing programs for developing steam loco especs.

I had wished N3V would add steam loco testing to the new TEST TRACK feature in TANE as I had been lead to believe as a member of the TEG group but after 6 years or so we are still left to fend for ourselves.

Bob Pearson

Robert704 said:

I am wondering if anyone has some supplemental or updated date on the new tags and their usage, and is willing to share it. Not necessary to post it, just drop me a line by PM and/or email with attachments.

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Much better to use the wiki itself for the collaboration. Just add what you have, making liberal use of TBD, Doubtful, Obsolete etc. For more detailed issues use the wiki discussion pages. Then post here occasionally with the pages where you have made changes, inviting additional updates and discussion. You will generally get better input if you ask about specific issues.

RPearson said:

Robert, very commendable undertaking. I wish you the best.

I believe you are referring to the steam container documentation located here. If so I'm not aware of any new tags that are not listed. You could argue from the very start that the exact definition, use and range of appropriate values for the entire listing has not been overwhelming. Most at least have some sort of definition, units and default values listed.
... ...
I had wished N3V would add steam loco testing to the new TEST TRACK feature in TANE as I had been lead to believe as a member of the TEG group but after 6 years or so we are still left to fend for ourselves.

Bob Pearson

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Yes, that (tag comment expansions) was what I had in mind. The tag descriptions are very bare and do not provide a clue of how they are used or what impact they have on driving performance. I wish the KIND engine documentation would include the steam container or at least a link to it. When building a steam loco, the two are always used in the same config file. But, my real complaint is the badly dated material in the "How To" guide for steam locos. It was pretty good until build 3.0, but now is sadly lacking.

... and if the PEVSoft guys are listening, another real need is a player for .kin files to test animation is meshes. WAY beyond my ability.

Also, a BIG BUMP on you comment regarding TEST TRACK capability for steam locos. Doing it all with home grown tools requires a great deal of time, energy and patience.

Robert, the espec for steam locos should be a kind steam-engine asset which has the updated tags for the new steam physics introduced in TS09. The Wiki page covering the steam-engine asset located here, has a link to the steam container I referenced above.

Like a few other espec developers I think the current steam implementation has some problems. The ~60% power when going in reverse that has been noted in the forums over the past 8 years or so is just one. Trouble is I find the power in reverse is closer to the correct power based on loco characteristics and dimensions used in the especs than when going forward. There are a couple of ways to correct the excess power, mine is a bit involved because I try to stick to the underlying physics but there is no way I know of to correct the large difference in power output between forward and reverse directions. That's in the game code. Whatever you think about the especs the large difference in power output is not a real simulation of steam locomotive behavior and should be addressed.

Bob Pearson

RPearson said:

I had wished N3V would add steam loco testing to the new TEST TRACK feature in TANE as I had been lead to believe as a member of the TEG group but after 6 years or so we are still left to fend for ourselves.

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This was asked in the Trainz discord recently and Tony replied with this:

GDennish said:

This was asked in the Trainz discord recently and Tony replied with this:

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Yes I ask the question. Sometime in the future - maybe. But I thanked him for the reply.

Bob Pearson

Robert704 said:

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... and if the PEVSoft guys are listening, another real need is a player for .kin files to test animation is meshes. WAY beyond my ability.
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PEVSoft is just PEV himself these days after Andi Smith died. Peter is around but not very active these days so I don't think an animation player is likely. When making a set of loco drivers I just make them as a scenery asset with a notex material, set a low animation speed and look at it in Trainz. I'm sure there are FBX viewers that show animation since the animation details are in the FBX file. N3V extracts that and turns it into a KIN file.

As for updating the WiKI, that is something I do occasionally but, as mentioned, there is an information vacuum and the best we can do is add the results of any testing marking them as SailorDan suggests. That may save others time.

The lack of steam loco support for TestTrack in TANE, and now TRS19, was a huge disappointment for me as I was hoping to be able to create my own especs rather than blindly using others or getting someone to make one for me. Maybe N3V will get around to it when it is cost-effective to do so.

Robert704 said:

... and if the PEVSoft guys are listening, another real need is a player for .kin files to test animation is meshes. WAY beyond my ability.

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As Paul says there probably are some viewers if you have the original .fbx files. Some content creators include the fbx source in the released version, most don't. For the older content with .im and .kin you're almost certainly out of luck since it's closer to 100% who don't supply source files. You'd have to ask the content creator for help if they are still active or living.

What I've done is similar to Paul's approach. I added a special debug function in a custom Trainz asset script that steps thru the animation at 1 frame per 5 sec rate and displays the frame numbers as it goes. I ran into problems with door animations a while back. For the worst cases I needed the actual frame numbers to start and stop individual parts of the animation. I only had the .kin files to work with.

Using Trainz gamescript isn't something I'd recommend unless you have some programming experience, but if you do it's much easier than going thru the .kin binary format and writing a graphics program to view them. Auran actually did publish the original format as part of their JET docs way - way back and I've done some header mods in .kin files using that info. But a viewer program for them is not something I'd want to undertake.

Bob Pearson