Steam locomotives and vision from cab?

jeffmorris

Active member
I watched a movie "Amy" set in 1920s where a young deaf man beat up a deaf boy and ran out of the live-in school for deaf and blind children. Another deaf boy followed him. They ran along train track at night. The deaf boy was able to jump out of the way of the train but the young man didn't and was killed. I think that the train crew were not able to see the track ahead because the cab was in back.
 
I have been told that when hood units were first introduced in the late 1940s and early 1950s, running them long-hood-forward was standard, in part because it was believed to be safer for the crew, but also because it was believed that the similar visibility to that of a steam locomotive cab would aid crews in making the transition. Both beliefs were eventually disproven, at least in large part.
 
Last edited:
I watched a movie "Amy" set in 1920s where a young deaf man beat up a deaf boy and ran out of the live-in school for deaf and blind children. Another deaf boy followed him. They ran along train track at night. The deaf boy was able to jump out of the way of the train but the young man didn't and was killed. I think that the train crew were not able to see the track ahead because the cab was in back.

Here's the fireman's view from Ex-US Army Transportation Corps 2-8-0 #610, now at the Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum. As you can see, even with the boiler, he's got a pretty good view of what's ahead of him. https://www.railpictures.net/photo/73884/
 
  • 15 MPH (24 KPH) is the killing velocity in a vehicle/pedestrian collision. That's 22 feet per second, or ~6.7 meters/second.
  • Trains are very heavy and do not stop quickly. To see this, run your trainz in cab control, not simple controls.
  • Steam loco headlamps were nowhere near as effective as the ones you are used to.
  • Brits used to have no actual headlights on their steamers.
  • Engineers and firemen, especially in steamers, must constantly monitor their machinery as well as the road so eyes will not be forward all the time. That's the value of having two or three in the cab.

:B~(
 
And that was when they were at their controls, early on in Britain there wasn't a rule on being at the controls so it wasn't unusual to see a loco go by with someone hanging off the edge mending something. It actually caused a very bad crash on the Midland line when a driver AND fireman were so busy fixing a problem in cab they blew passed two red signals AND the signalman with a lamp and flag.
 
Steam locos required that the fireman/conductor kept a keen eye out his LH window, and made clear verbal communication to the engineer, as he was basically running blind when going around a L H curve. Very few steam locos were cab forwards, having a panoramic view of the track ahead. Even today on diesels, the conductor plays a huge part of informing the engineer of his LH view of the track ahead. In Japan the conductor calls out the signals, and the engineer repeats the conductors words, if he concurs, and they both give a strict regimental verbal and visual white glove hand signal salutes, when ever they concur on a signals aspect.
In US steam era it was engineman on the right side and fireman and front brakeman on the left in most cabs. They all called out signals as they saw them. If they didn't concur the driver had to make a decision to slow or not. Conductor, rear brakeman and flagman were stationed in the caboose. It was a team effort to run a steam train.

Bob Pearson
 
Running long-hood-forward was not normal but PRR always did.
Maybe not to those Yankees, but it was quite normal on Southern Ry and the N&W.
They even labeled the long hood the front as per FRA mandate with a small F on the side sill.

I have been told that when hood units were first introduced in the late 1940s and early 1950s, running them long-hood-forward was standard, in part because it was believed to be safer for the crew, but also because it was believed that the similar visibility to that of a steam locomotive cab would aid crews in making the transition. Both beliefs were eventually disproven, at least in large part.
Indeed, and in the matter of "safer", the long term exposure to diesel exhaust from the stack being ahead of the cab eventually was connected to lung problems in N&W and SOU diesel crews.

A reference to that; https://virginiabeach.legalexaminer...ng-disease-and-cancers-part-2-of-two-reports/
(I lived in several locations in SOU and N&W territory in the 1970s and 1980s, among them VA Beach, VA, where this from later originates, and through various connections heard about developments in the issue.)

It was shown that Norfolk Southern knew by 1985 that various locomotive crews were reporting medical problems and complaining about excessive diesel exhaust. Baker’s exposures were all before 1991, and he had stated before his death that black smoke routinely flooded the engine cab. Baker explained that the engine cabs were usually 20 or 30 degrees warmer than the outside temperature and he had no choice but to open the engine windows, because locomotives at Norfolk Southern at that time were typically oriented for the engineer to operate the engine in the long hood forward position, placing it in front of the engine cab, and the exhaust openings were mounted on the body of the engine, at the top, and this allowed exhaust to trail into the engine cab. There was considerable evidence from a pulmonary expert specializing in diesel exhaust about the connection between Baker’s cancer and the diesel exhaust exposure over the long term. The court also noted that it was appropriate for the jury to consider whether the diesel exhaust fumes were improperly invading the engine in violation of the locomotive inspection act as well as the particular regulation that requires that diesel exhaust only be expelled outside engine cabs. The appeal Court in Georgia agreed that the jury had properly decided the case, but did find a legal error in a jury instruction relating to wrongful death damages, and the jury decision was otherwise upheld on the railroad’s liability for diesel exhaust violations.

Oh, this from the government's medical reference website might also be of interest, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8433186

J Occup Med. 1993 Feb;35(2):149-54.
[h=1]Diesel asthma. Reactive airways disease following overexposure to locomotive exhaust.[/h]Wade JF 3rd[SUP]1[/SUP], Newman LS.
[h=3]Author information[/h]

[h=3]Abstract[/h]While some of the gaseous and particulate components of diesel exhaust can cause pulmonary irritation and bronchial hyperreactivity, diesel exhaust exposure has not been shown to cause asthma. Three railroad workers developed asthma following excessive exposure to locomotive emissions while riding immediately behind the lead engines of caboose-less trains. Asthma diagnosis was based on symptoms, pulmonary function tests, and measurement of airways hyperreactivity to methacholine or exercise. One individual's peak expiratory flow rates fell in a work-related pattern when riding immediately behind the lead diesel engine. None had a previous history of asthma or other respiratory disease and none were current smokers. All three developed persistent asthma. In two cases, physiologic abnormalities suggesting reversible restriction were observed. This is the first report implicating diesel exhaust as a cause of reactive airways disease.
 
Last edited:
Great histories guys! I don't want to get off topic, but does anyone know how to get to the fireman's side of the cab in TRAINZ? None of the in-cab keyboard arrows or scrolling or other moves ever seem to get me over to that side. Makes it real hard to drive in cab mode, at least to me...
 
Great histories guys! I don't want to get off topic, but does anyone know how to get to the fireman's side of the cab in TRAINZ? None of the in-cab keyboard arrows or scrolling or other moves ever seem to get me over to that side. Makes it real hard to drive in cab mode, at least to me...

Main Menu button in driver/surveyor window.
Settings
General Settings
is in lower part of that window under
Advanced Settings for content developers
> click "Enable free internal camera"
 
Running long-hood-forward was not normal but PRR always did.
It was also standard on the EJ&E around Chicago for many years, though it had fallen out of practice by my lifetime.

Interesting stuff, I hadn't even considered the exhaust aspect. Another safety issue with long-hood-forward is that, in the event of a collision with a flammable substance container (e.g. a tanker car or truck) said substance is far more likely to ignite before hitting the cab if it comes into contact with the generator and/or prime mover first.

Incidentally, would the proclivity of those particular roads for running LHF explain why they stuck with high-hooded Geeps far longer than other roads seemed to?
 
The RS series was run long hood forward on many roads including the Milwaukee. It may have been the mindset of generations running steam locos. Weren't the only cab-forward steamers the SP's? Those were very modern locos and were replaced by diesels long before they wore out.

:B~)
 
On the Southern Pacific, cab forward locomotives were built due to the smoke problem in the many tunnels the railroad ran through in the mountains. It was so bad the crew had to wear hoods connected to hoses which provided fresh air while traveling through the tunnels.

William

https://www.google.com/search?q=how...irefox-b-1-d&safe=active#imgrc=wET7ncxyr3FZ2M

That's the reason why some companies electrified their tunneled portions of their routes. The famous Woodhead route was electrified early on in the UK because engineers and firemen were passing out from the lack of oxygen. They would tie wet rags across their faces, lay down in the cab, and hope they survived when they exited the tunnel. The same thing was done by the crews on the Boston and Maine, when the Hoosac Tunnel opened up in 1877.

With nearly 100 trains a day plying through the double-tracked tunnel, there was so much smoke in there it would never clear. The 5-mile Hoosac Tunnel became so dangerous that a blower system was installed to suck out the smoke and fumes, but that wasn't enough to cope with the dangerous build up of toxic fumes.

In 1910 while under New Haven control, the B&M electrified about 8 miles of their route from Florida, MA (Hoosac Tunnel Station) to North Adams, MA and ran box-motor electric locomotives coupled to the steam locomotives. This service lasted until 1946 when the electrics were retired and replaced by the then new EMD FTs. I was told it was the EMD FT demonstrators that killed the electrics and prompted the demise of steam on the other B&M long distance routes as it hastened its dieselization program.
 
Back
Top