Basic Fixable But Ignored

Another fecking 2 hours work lost......

I have seen numerous posts about this problem which is fairly easily fixable but N3V clearly don't think it's important. Well let me tell you on behalf of every route, session and content creator IT IS.

I refer to the long annoying fact that when working on a session, unless you are a robot (er, non of us are), you may forget to ensure the route layer is locked and that you are in fact working on the session layer. Maybe like me, you did check, and you locked the route layer so it can't be - accidentally - altered by mistake. Then for some reason, you go out of that session to check or do something else. You come back to it soon after and continue working for an hour or so, then decided to save.

Grrr... It says "Overwrite route and session" or, "Save as new route"!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!!!!!!

Ok so you accidentally changed something in the route layer, moved a tree when trying to move something else, and your work is now stuffed. Well it is not a major coding problem to arrange for the layers to be highlighted in red AND visible (not hidden in a sub folder) so you know EXACTLY what layer is being used AND whether layers are locked. Also, and again fairly simple to implement, if a layer is locked, by default IT SHOULD REMAIN LOCKED.This has been asked for probably a hundred times or more and being married to a computer programmer I am aware it is not a major hurdle to put into the software. It is essential to stop our anger at loosing all this work when the solution is fairly painless. Sure it can't be done for previous versions but you really need to do something about this for future versions, or you'll loose creators..... simples.

This is a G-rated forum, lets keep it that way.
Don't get angry and post. Have you thought that it may be easier to modify your procedures in session building to safeguard your work?
You will be offered to save route and session if you so much as open any tab other than the trains tab, bear that in mind and work to the limitations of the sim, modifying your workflow to match. Save early and often, if you make a mistake you will hardly lose a thing.
Graeme

This has been an "issue" since layers were first introduced (TRS2006?? or possibly TRS2004??) and something that creators have managed to live with since then - I certainly have. I don't see any mass departures of creators because of it.

There have been many threads on this issue and its possible solutions.

Until N3V comes up with a solution there are some simple techniques that you can use to get around this issue. Graeme has outlined one technique - save often. Another is to lock all the layers that you are not using. Both can be inconvenient but they work for me until a better solution is found.

By the way, I use GIMP as my sole graphics editor and it clearly displays (if you want it to) the currently active layer along with all the layers and it allows you to lock layers as required. But I still get things in the wrong layer so having a solution in front of you and using it are two different things.

My thoughts.

Hi Alikiwi
Unfortunately there are lots of things that seem like simple fixes that we would like to do, but have to prioritise these along with all other bug fixes and new features that our team need to work on.

I am not aware of any reports of layers unlocking after being locked, however if you have a reliable set of steps to reproduce this then please submit a report through the bug report form so that our team can investigate this. You can submit a bug report through the bug report form here: https://n3vgames.typeform.com/to/xRdryu


However, right now the easiest fix for this would be to edit the route and 'lock' the route layers using the large padlock icon in the layers tab. This will help prevent edits to the route, and in particular should warn you if a change you are about to make will require the route to be unlocked.

One thing that may in some cases cause an issue is editing the properties of an asset in some situations. In this case, right now, I would recommend that you save your sessions before opening the properties for an object that is in the route, so as to ensure that if this does occur, then you will not have lost any work. However if you do have a reproducible set of steps that result in this, in a route that is locked as above, then please also submit a bug report for this so that our team can look into it.

Regards

@ Alikiwi - Depending on what route it is you are working on, it may be alright to save to a new route (that is, if the game allows you to to save the route). At least you then have a saved session, albeit for the wrong route. It is a simple matter to edit the session config file and assign it to the correct route. Or you may decide to continue using the new route so that the situation doesn't arise again.

When it comes time to publish the session, just set the map kuid to the original route number and include the same kuid in the kuid table. You session is then magically switched to the proper route and you should confirm that the session still runs correctly.

When it comes to locking the route layer, I find that sometimes I can't edit the properties of an industry or signal or other trackside object when the route layer is locked.

Hope that helps - Trevor

pware said:

This has been an "issue" since layers were first introduced (TRS2006?? or possibly TRS2004??) and something that creators have managed to live with since then - I certainly have. I don't see any mass departures of creators because of it.

...

Click to expand...

Layers were introduced in TS2010 actually so not around as long as you might have thought. But I would say in the 10 years since surveyor layers were introduced N3V could have at least added something on the Surveyor screen to let us know which layer is active. Clearly a lot of N3V effort appears to be devoted to the eye candy side of the game. I get the feeling I must be a resident of the ignore group since a lot of what I'm hoping to be added and/or improved in the game seems to be on that low priority list.

Bob Pearson

1900 and counting

RPearson said:

Layers were introduced in TS2010 actually so not around as long as you might have thought. But I would say in the 10 years since surveyor layers were introduced N3V could have at least added something on the Surveyor screen to let us know which layer is active.

Click to expand...

I stand corrected - it just seemed a lot longer. I agree that placing the name of the active layer on the menu bar would be a help but, as I pointed out in my GIMP example, providing the information and creators using it are two different things. I would hate to see a "nag window" popping up on the screen saying "Do you really want to add that in this layer?" every time you add an asset to a scene - the Windows nag screen when you start an app is bad enough.

Well I appreciate the replies. I also agree too much focus on "eye candy" and not so much on the practical. I think some have missed the point/reality. I said I do lock the route layer when working on a session, so obviously not a payware route, but also not my route or it wouldn't be a problem. The problem is when you're working for hours, and you leave the session for some reason, for example, what the heck was the name of that "blimp" I want to use. I google alternate names, but nothing shows up in CM. I am forced to exit the session, go into another click on the blimp to find it's called "Saucisse". I exit, and go back into the session I am building....... and forget I now have to lock the route AGAIN.

I think in the long run (when combined with other factors) may affect sales. In other words a user friendly game can only keep sales. Anyway,
1) The best solution is layers staying as the player/creator set them.
2) If that's to hard, too much programming, 2nd best option is by default the route should be locked. No accidental loss of work. A few might complain but the majority would be thankful.


So, to Zec, this isn't a bug in the game, merely the way it is set up. I should further clarify, this is me making sessions on other people's routes, (to be uploaded for others to use) so saving as a new route is not an option. To Trevor, thanks for the suggestion, I have copied what you wrote and saved it for next time this happens, because it will happen.
Apologies if I offended anyone, but the hours of lost work makes you want to pull your hair out, and I really can't afford that. I do hope however when you come up with the next version of Trainz, you change the default settings to User or Locked, or add a display so one can see always, what layer is locked or not. My 2 cents worth.

Alikiwi said:

1) The best solution is layers staying as the player/creator set them.

Click to expand...

Which has always been my experience. I have never known a layer to lock or unlock itself without direct user intervention in Surveyor or through the Show/Hide Layer Rule or Layer Control driver command. There was a bug in the TANE Show/Hide Layer Rule (I checked TRS19 and the bug is no longer there) that would show all hidden layers when a saved driver game was restarted.

Alikiwi said:

2) If that's to hard, too much programming, 2nd best option is by default the route should be locked. No accidental loss of work. A few might complain but the majority would be thankful.

Click to expand...

It has been suggested by a few that when a Session is loaded then all the route layers should be locked - there is a button on the Layers panel that does that but if you lock all the route layers when you save the route they will/should be locked when you reload the route - point 1 above.

I appreciate your response and I was not offended. An app that causes no user angst is not doing its job, IMHO.

@ Alikiwi - Thanks for acknowledging my suggestion. Can I now make another: That you practice on a small test route the method of reassigning a session from one route (map) to another. A good understanding of the relationship between maps and sessions is essential to achieving success.

* Maps do not know anything about the sessions that operate on them.
* Sessions keep a record of which map they apply to in a config file tag: map-kuid <kuid of your route>.
* This map kuid also appears in the kuid table of the session. If you change the map-kuid then change the kuid-table entry at the same time. Then save the config file edits and submit the changes.

* You can easily find the map kuid of a session in Content Manager by double-clicking on the selected session. The route kuid is shown in the Parent ID field.

Practice this procedure until you are happy that you can do it whenever you need to.

Cheers - Trevor

Just confirming, repeating. If you are working on a session (not route) and lock the route layer to prevent these accidents, the next time you load the session to edit it, the route layer (unless its payware) will again be unlocked.

That seems to be correct, Ali. I only have TANE SP4 and even if you lock the entire route using the bottom lock button and then save the route and session, reloading the session results in an unlocked route layer.

I think the answer is to clone the original route right at the start and then you can overwrite it to your heart's content. Just remember to reset the kuid to the correct route and test it before uploading the session.

Cheers - Trevor

I just tested that in TRS19 Platinum. I have a route and session with 13 layers in the route. Clicking the Lock Route Layers button on the layers flyout locks all the route layers but not the session layers (as expected). The route is saved (actually it is the session that is saved because the locked/unlocked status of all the layers is saved in the session - why I do not know) and Trainz exited. On reloading the session the route-layer, not the other 12 layers in the route, has been unlocked. I have no explanation for this.

Further, if I unlock all the layers, save, and then reload the session again, all layers in the route except the route-layer are locked. Again, no explanation.

Further still, the Lock/Unlock button works in a very strange way. If you manually and individually unlock some layers then clicking the Lock icon will lock those layers, clicking it again (when it shows as an Unlock icon) only unlocks those layers that you had originally individually unlocked. Other layers are not affected.

I have never noticed this before as I am in the habit of leaving all layers locked except those that I will be editing, and I lock them all before saving. So in that respect it does not affect the way I work, but I can see that it is not what would be expected.

Additional Testing:

I think I can see something of what is going on here. If you

1. click the Lock All Route Layers button (which has had its name changed to "Lock Entire Route" - a much more fearsome title),
2. select a Session Layer as the active layer and then
3. attempt to manually unlock one of the route layers

a warning popup message will appear stating "This change would require a Route resave/clone and will not proceed. Do you want to unlock the Route for editing or continue to edit only the Session?" and three buttons are provided - Clone, Unlock, Cancel. That, I think, would put the fear of eternal damnation into the unwary and, I suspect, may be a response to those who have been advocating the locking of Route layers when editing a Session.

Still, the strange operation of the Lock Entire Route button noted in my previous post and the unlocking of the route layer when a session is reloaded, does puzzle me so I am submitting a step by step bug report starting from a newly created route and session.

Interesting. Beats me why by default the route layer isn't locked, which would safer, rather than unlocked. Anyway, another work around I can now refer to, thanks for checking.