Driver Commands - weak AI?

Nethog61

New member
I finally decided to purchase TRS 2019 Platinum and am extremely impressed by how much better a product it is than TANE. Anyway, I am about to play the "Dispatchin' the Action" session in Kickstarter County 2, which is a new playstyle for me since it heavily depends on driver commands - I normally only play sessions controlling a single train using realistic controls. So I tried setting up a simple series of commands to a locomotive in St. Nicolaas yard: (1) couple a locomotive to a 3 tanker car consist on a siding in the yard, then drive to a trackmark on the mainline passing through the yard. So the locomotive successfully couples to the tankers, reverses successfully out to the mainline running through the yard - so far so good. So now all the AI has to do is drive forward to the trackmark just ahead on the mainline. But here is the stupid part, it fails to flip the switch that I used to reverse it to the mainline. So the train moves forward but goes back into the yard to the siding where I coupled to the tankers! And it gets worse, the train enters an infinite loop, reversing back out to the mainline, and then returning to the siding where I originally coupled to the tankers, over and over. Since this is my first serious use of drivers commands, and there are several trains that the session requires you establish simultaneous driver commands for, I am wondering if it is worth playing the session? Based on my first simple test I think it will be a frustrating experience. Is the AI really that weak in trainz?
 
For clarity, you saw a junction in front of you. The AI probably saw an unsignalled section of track and decided, like all obedient drivers, to not enter the track.

Remember that the AI will do exactly as it is told. If it isn't doing what you expect, work out why. It's not because it is "dumb" but rather it hasn't been given the set of instructions required to complete the task you would like it to do.

Another tip. Use Stop schedule, change the junction, then Continue schedule and it will probably solve your issue.

Of course there is also room for improvement in making the AI understand more, but meanwhile, give it more instructions or a helping hand.
 
Since 2004 (I have used Trainz since 2009) I have always made complicated sessions with up to 50 trains running with AI. I act as the despatcher, keeping an eye on them and getting them going if they get stuck. It takes a lot of thought to get things to work,
The first thing I do is change all the main tracks to dual, with directon markers controlling them.
I don't use signals in yards, except for one guarding the exit to main lines. Ai will happily work together in a yard by line of sight.
I don't overuse trackmarks, just place them in stratejic places.
I also use simple instructions, sometimes sending a train from one end of the route to the other, with a couple of instructions and let it work it out.
I also use very simple signal setups, not prototypical.
I very seldom drive trains and when I do it is in DC ( I can use Realistic but don't choose to). I use driving to get past my insomnia, ten minutes driving and I am falling asleep, I am 73.
My advice is to keep it simple. I don't have TS19 and don't intend to get it. I have more than enough to keep me busy the rest of my life.
I always get a laugh at people who run down the AI, their expectations are often unreal, so they have problems.
Just enjoy whatever version you use. Lately I have been running TS12 for a change and except for the pauses it still does a good job.
Have fun and don't get uptight.
Cheers,
Mike
 
Since 2004 (I have used Trainz since 2009) I have always made complicated sessions with up to 50 trains running with AI. I act as the despatcher, keeping an eye on them and getting them going if they get stuck. It takes a lot of thought to get things to work,
The first thing I do is change all the main tracks to dual, with directon markers controlling them.
I don't use signals in yards, except for one guarding the exit to main lines. Ai will happily work together in a yard by line of sight.
I don't overuse trackmarks, just place them in stratejic places.
I also use simple instructions, sometimes sending a train from one end of the route to the other, with a couple of instructions and let it work it out.
I also use very simple signal setups, not prototypical.
I very seldom drive trains and when I do it is in DC ( I can use Realistic but don't choose to). I use driving to get past my insomnia, ten minutes driving and I am falling asleep, I am 73.
My advice is to keep it simple. I don't have TS19 and don't intend to get it. I have more than enough to keep me busy the rest of my life.
I always get a laugh at people who run down the AI, their expectations are often unreal, so they have problems.
Just enjoy whatever version you use. Lately I have been running TS12 for a change and except for the pauses it still does a good job.
Have fun and don't get uptight.
Cheers,
Mike

My driving and setup is very much the same. I believe in KISS, and I fall asleep at the controls as well and I'm a bit younger.
 
We tend to forget that real railroads still use human drivers, human signalers, human yard supervisors and switchmen/switchwomen, and human dispatchers because they are still better at solving the sorts of problems that often appear for which solutions cannot be built into a timetable or a set of train orders (driver commands).
 
Hi

One of the problems that the AI has is that people want to use it in the way that they think it should work. Unfortunately most of them have different expectations of how it should work and end up getting frustrated and thinking that it is useless. I was the same when I first started using it but once I took the time to understand how it does work and started using it in that way it works just fine.

It all depends on whether you just want to tell it to drive to a trackmark a couple of hundred miles away and expect it to behave perfectly or if you're prepared to spend the time setting it up correctly to do exactly what you want it to do. You can get it to work properly with just a couple of commands but you need to spend a lot of time setting up paths in Enhanced Interlocking Towers and learning how to use their associated rules and commands in order to do that.

There are scores of rules and driver commands on the DLS which will allow you to do almost anything with the AI. Authors to look out for are 'pguy', 'trev999', and 'atilabarut' amongst many others who my memory can't bring to mind at the moment. Some of the commands by 'atialabarut' were written over 15 years ago but most still work fine in the latest versions of trainz.

Don't ignore the ones written in langauges other than English either as with a little bit of time and experimentation you can often work out what they are designed to do. If you can't understand one then just delete it and move on to the next one.

Regards

Brian
 
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Unlike many other things which we enjoy yet come with health warnings, Trainz does not, yet it will send you round the bend long before you master the basics let alone its quirks and finer details and thats without even considering AI. Someone once wrote here in the Forum in response to a Newbie question it take a year to get your head round your first version of Trainz, 6 months for future versions and a lifetime to understand AI. They probably got it about right.

While I am not familiar with your route, in Trainz locomotives generally expect to pull not push and frequently you need to instruct them to push if you find they don't understand it on their own. However first it worth remembering that the track marker on the main line must allow for the complete train to be clear of the capture radius of the points or they will remain locked and never change. It can be adjusted via the points properties tool, 3-5m generally works OK.

If you have that covered perhaps try helping AI out with; Drive To, or Navigate To, the track marker on the main line. Wait For, a short period to make it look realistic and break up the commands. Change Train Direction, to help out AI, followed by where you want it to go.

Another trick I have learnt where AI struggles to set points is to add a third track to the junction using invisible track terminated with an invisible buffer or signal and set the resting position of the points to it. It becomes a starting point for AI to start searching for the destination you have set. Peter
 
The product that N3V is selling has flaws. Many of them are inherent in AI. Reading the preceding messages a wealth of information is offered by people who have devoted considerable time to the subject. It should be obvious to N3V that AI is one of the central points for the sale and use of their product. I would think that a prudent manager would attempt to catalog the various measures customers have developed to manage AI. Once cataloged they become a framework for what we all hope is a revamping of the AI system. Another (revenue protecting) step is to rationalize the experts remedies and work-arounds. Through proper management a list of AI issues can be constructed and published with possible corrective hints/steps. If this is a STRUCTURED, collaborative effort, the experienced customers can contribute and feel that their effort is not lost in the NOISE of a forum. A 2-pronged approach will protect existing revenue streams and prevent potential customers from being discouraged by the unsolved issues illuminated on the forums.

So, help today, build a catalog, structure a corrective software effort based upon these information bases.
 
Nethog61,
This session is one of my favorite ones for Kickstarter2. I literally had a blast playing it, and I was pretty new to the system at the time. Don't give up on it.

I found that a lot of the yard movements had to be done by simply driving the engines myself. I blended driving the engines a bit with giving AI commands. Once they got free of the yard, they really jumped to the tasks, and it was quite a rush having all these engines racing around the route following AI commands.

Will they get stuck? Yes. But if you jump around the map and keep tabs on them, you can adjust their commands to hold them on sidings where need be, or stop them if you see that they are approaching a standoff. I was really kept busy by constantly checking the various trains and gauging how quickly they would get to a particular part of the map. Sometimes I just had a train wait for 5 or 10 minutes at a passing siding to let the other AI train rush by, and then resumed their schedule. I was never really able to just sit back and relax and let the AI trains roll - I was constantly checking on them. But, when the sun went down and the session was over, I really felt like I'd done something worthwhile, different, and fun.

I'm still in awe of the amazing things that so many of the posters here are able to do with their routes and AI commands, but for this session, I was able to make it work and have a really cool experience.

Heinrich505
 
Maybe what we need is a Tips and tricks thread for setting up sessions just like there's one for Surveyor. This would be helpful for new users and veterans alike.
 
I too ran Dispatchin' the first week I had a Trainz product (TRS-19 Early Release) - Had a blast figuring things out.

I am amazed that the dispatching aspect of trains is rarely mentioned in the forums. It seems to be the "ignored" thing. People talk about either Creating Routes, Creating Sessions, or Driving. It's too bad dispatching is overlooked. Outside of the Kickstarter 2 Dispatchin' session, is there any other dispatching session for any routes? I don't know of any.
 
Like mikeaust and JCitron, I program the AI to run multiple trains. I never get in a cab.
In the real world, no one tells locomotive engineers "Go there" with the hopes that they will somehow figure out how to do it on their own.

Tony was right when he said: "If it isn't doing what you expect, work out why." That may not be your thing just as driving a train is not my thing.


There has never been an AI "problem" that I haven't been able to "solve". Sometimes it takes hours of trying this or that. Sometimes it involves the use of advanced tools like EIT. Sometimes it takes ripping up a mile of track and reconfiguring and relaying it. Sometimes it means saying - OK that guy ain't gonna go to that industry. Solution - get rid of the industry and move on.

It's also important to realize that a Route that was designed to test a player's driving skills is not necessarily a Route that lends itself to AI. I don't design and build Routes anymore. I find one that looks interesting and then make extensive changes to it to enable it to run many trains automatically.
 
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Ecco.
Like you I use routes available and modify to my needs.
My most used one is what I call 'Big Skene'. I have coupled all of Philsken's early routes together into one massive route.
This has given me many hours of enjoyment, adding to sessions with smaller self contained operations.
Cheers,
Mike
 
Well I finally got a chance to check this thread for responses to my post yesterday - wow! What a great community of users. Thank-you all for your valuable feedback - it is very much appreciated. There were several good tips on how to use drive commands and how not to use driver commands. I guess I was a little surprised that giving 2 simple commands to a locomotive: couple, and drive to Trackmark all within the same rail yard would lead to such a strange AI response. On the other hand, there were a few posts from some of you that have tried the session and enjoyed it, and that did inspire me to try the session myself. I will take the advice of one of the posters and take a more manual approach in yards. Regarding Tony Hilliam's response, I would really appreciate if N3V could reproduce my specific issue, and then either confirm I am a complete noob that doesn't understand all of the arcane rules of operating a locomotive:), or confirms that there is a technical issue which could be considered for fixing in a future service pack. I will post the exact steps I took at the end of my post if Tony or anyone else has TRS2019 Platinum and wants to try it. Again I am REALLY enjoying TRS 2019, and think it is the best Trainz version ever (I have previously played TS2009, TS12, and TANE).

Steps to reproduce issue:
(1) Start a new session of "Dispatchin' the Action" of the Kickstarter County 2 route.
(2) Select "Ian"
(3) Add the command: Couple, Tanker 40ft UTLX 1
(4) Add the command: Drive to Trackmark, TM10

By the way, if you stop the train after it reverses out past the problem switch Jct S02, manually flip the switch Jct S02, and finally resume the schedule - instead of the train simply advancing to TM10, it first reverses all the way to the Clearwater logging company, before finally advancing to TM10.
 
That reversing behaviour where the AI goes back to some unknown point to orientate itself before proceeding is something that's downright annoying and very difficult to stop. AI will drive straight over direction markers and ignore them to reach the reference point it wants and as you would expect completely messes up scheduling of other trains on a busy mainline. The other fun thing AI will do is try to force past a signal at danger to drive a train directly into the path of an oncoming train. And don't get me started on the 'Navigate to' command which can only have been put into Trainz to cause absolute mayhem and give Trainz folk the opportunity to learn new swear words.
I would like to see a command put into Trainz that can give an AI driver a 20,000 volt electric shock with appropriate pyrotechnics. It will of course do no good and won't change anything, but would at least allow Trainz folk to get rid of some of their frustration.

However the Trainz AI can be made to behave and after a lot of work I have AI running a lot of train movements on my Norfolk layout, - with some of the movements branchline trains make with running around their trains getting quite complex. So it can be done with a lot of persistence, close attention to signalling and dozens and dozens of 'hey go this way stupid' trackmarks placed everywhere to keep the AI on a tight rein.
 
However the Trainz AI can be made to behave and after a lot of work I have AI running a lot of train movements on my Norfolk layout, - with some of the movements branchline trains make with running around their trains getting quite complex. So it can be done with a lot of persistence, close attention to signalling and dozens and dozens of 'hey go this way stupid' trackmarks placed everywhere to keep the AI on a tight rein.

After years of placing dozens of trackmarks and telling multiple AI drivers to DriveViaTM, someone (apologies, I don't remember who) posted about the Track Priority Marker. Wow! It's a real difference maker.
 
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